Does it matter what opera singers look like?

[Sir Velo]

Having seen the photos it is clear that this Octavian is not physically repulsive. I see no reason why a woman well past her sell by date (ie the Marschallin; not Kate Royal ) might not find this Octavian attractive. Ok she's short. But wasn't there a time when Dudley Moore was an international sex symbol? Notwithstanding, there is often no accounting for the type of man women find themselves attracted to: think Anna Nicole Smith and J. Howard Marshall).

[doversoul1]

I give you Denis O'Neil, again. I don't rmember ever seeing him condemned for his lack of height - or any other man, for that matter.

I don’t think any of these reviewers ‘condemned’ this singer. Aren’t they all saying how good she is as a singer? She wasn’t described as anything like ‘fat and ugly with bulging eyes and too big a mouth’ or anything of that sort. I think casting of a young male / boy character in opera is always problematic and producers should take particular care. When not one but several reviewers all noticed the ‘unsuitableness’ of the singer’s appearance, there is obviously a problem. I don’t see anything sexist about their comments.

Besides, I thought most singers, or any performers for that matter, usually declare that they take no notice of what critics and reviewers say. So why all this fuss? It looks to me as if they are grabbing an opportunity to take their revenge.

Incidentally, I find Hansel and Gretel (the opera, not any pantomime) quite unwatchable for this very reason.

[Mary Chambers]

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Incidentally, I find Hansel and Gretel (the opera, not any pantomime) quite unwatchable for this very reason.

I've seen a couple of reasonably convincing Hansels.

[jean]

If you say something about a woman singer's appearance that you wouldn't say about a man's, that's sexist. My point was that I have never heard of a male singer being judged unsuitable for his lack of stature.

This case is complicated by the fact that few women, however approvedly slim they may be, have a male bodily shape, but except in pantomime, men are never required to represent women on stage. Didn't the castrati develop shapes rather different from those of the unmodified male? Were they criticised on the basis of that?

But talk of 'taking revenge' seems very unfair, as I don't think te singer concerned has said anything at all.

[Richard Tarleton]

Perhaps not by critics, but definitely by audiences!

I'd have to agree with that. It somehow helped seeing him in small theatres (as I did many times in the Grand Swansea and New, Cardiff). A very fine tenor. He did a recital in Milford Haven with the excellent lady accompanist who used to do Cardiff Singer of the World, and who is quite tall - fortunately she wore very flat shoes though there was an unseemly snigger from somewhere near me as they walked on.

[Mary Chambers]

If you say something about a woman singer's appearance that you wouldn't say about a man's, that's sexist. My point was that I have never heard of a male singer being judged unsuitable for his lack of stature.
.

As I was trying to point out in my earlier post - my reference wasn't intended to be only to Denis O'Neill - I have very frequently heard audiences criticise male singers for their lack of height, or at least mention it. In fact I've done it myself sometimes. I don't know whether critics have ever done so.

[Lento]

Just caught an interview with Dame Kiri on Today

Her interview with the Telegraph is here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/10848873/Dame-Kiri-Te-Kanawa-blames-Glyndebourne-costumes-for-sexism-row.html

[jean]

I think I missed your reply, Mary - I am still having extraordinary difficulty managing thisboard on my phone.

[LHC]

I don’t think any of these reviewers ‘condemned’ this singer. Aren’t they all saying how good she is as a singer? She wasn’t described as anything like ‘fat and ugly with bulging eyes and too big a mouth’ or anything of that sort. I think casting of a young male / boy character in opera is always problematic and producers should take particular care. When not one but several reviewers all noticed the ‘unsuitableness’ of the singer’s appearance, there is obviously a problem. I don’t see anything sexist about their comments.

Besides, I thought most singers, or any performers for that matter, usually declare that they take no notice of what critics and reviewers say. So why all this fuss? It looks to me as if they are grabbing an opportunity to take their revenge.

Incidentally, I find Hansel and Gretel (the opera, not any pantomime) quite unwatchable for this very reason.

The Times reviewer, Richard Morrison, described her as "Unbelievable, unsightly and unappealing". The only reason his comments haven't attracted more condemnation is that they were hidden from public view behind the Times paywall.

I think part of the problem was that almost all the male critics chose to describe her in similarly derogatory terms and paid fare more attention to her lack of height and 'dumpiness' than her singing (one of them, having spent a paragraph decrying her physical unsuitability, only grudgingly referred to the musical side of her performance in just three words: "albeit well sung"). If it had been just one critic, it might have passed without notice, but when almost all the male critics referred to a young and talented singer so disparagingly, it was bound to create a backlash.

[gradus]

I really don't get this appearance rubbish. Its music not a beauty pageant.

[Roehre]

is Octavian described in the stage directions ? [I don't know Rosenkavalier]- is he supposed to be masculine-looking ?

the designs for the premiere (Alfred Roller, 1911) shows a masculine young man, both in his riding costume (end act I) and in his "Gala-Anzug" to be worn at the presentation of the silver rose. The disguise as Mariandl (act 3) shows a rather petite young lady.

[mercia]

thanks.

Why do we think that Strauss made it a mezzo role - just to emphasise his youth ? Or to create some sort of sexual-ambiguity-subtext-thing. Or just following a long tradition of theatrical crossdressing for the humourous potential....... or other reasons ..

[Mary Chambers]

I really don't get this appearance rubbish. Its music not a beauty pageant.

Not a beauty pageant certainly, but opera is more than music. We're talking about suitability for roles in the theatre, not appearance in a concert hall.

[teamsaint]

I really don't get this appearance rubbish. Its music not a beauty pageant.

Well quite.

And as LHC alludes to, its still absolutely fine to be critical of people / performers/composers/ whoever on the grounds of their height.

Just ask Katie Derham, for instance, who thinks that kind of prejudice is just fine , even when broadcast.
Just as well the lady in question isn't a red head too, because its always open season on them .

[doversoul1]

If you say something about a woman singer's appearance that you wouldn't say about a man's, that's sexist. My point was that I have never heard of a male singer being judged unsuitable for his lack of stature.

This case is complicated by the fact that few women, however approvedly slim they may be, have a male bodily shape, but except in pantomime, men are never required to represent women on stage. Didn't the castrati develop shapes rather different from those of the unmodified male? Were they criticised on the basis of that?

But talk of 'taking revenge' seems very unfair, as I don't think te singer concerned has said anything at all.

I think the reason we don’t often hear this sort of comments about male singers is because casting a male singer as a male character doesn’t pose the same sort of problems. Come to think of it, we don’t often hear these comments about female singers playing female characters, I suppose for the same reason. If only those reviewers had remembered to say that this singer was unsuitable or unsightly for this role, hence this was a problem of the production, all this fuss would probably have been avoided.

It isn’t the most important thing for the singer to look like a real man or boy. Many mature mezzo sopranos have played Sesto in Julius Caesar, for example, very successfully. It is all depends on (as has been mentioned somewhere up-thread) how the singer is presented (makeup, costume etc.) and how well she is coached in acting.

If men are never asked to play women seriously on stage while women are always playing men, well, I call that sexist . However, that is no longer the case. Here are a couple of examples (admittedly, this is still a rare thing)

Stefano Landi's Il Sant' Alessio
Concert performance on stage
Max Emanuel Cencic and Xavier Sabata had some of the most affecting scenes as his wife and mother respectively,

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2007/oct/26/classicalmusicandopera2

DVD
There is fine singing from Max Emanuel Cencic and Xavier Sabata as Alessio's wife and mother

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2008/dec/12/landi-il-sant-alession-review

Leonardo Vinci: Artaserse
…five of the world’s leading countertenors – assuming both male and female roles

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Erato/2564632323

not an opera but what do you think of him (the video has an English commentary)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78H9pg_Ip9Y

As for castrati, there are caricatures showing odd shaped bodies of those opera superstars but I imagine London audience just accepted that that was how castrati were.

By taking revenge, I meant those (many are singers, I imagine) who voiced their protest. I don’t blame them.

If you don’t believe in staged opera performance (with Baroque opera, I don’t most of the time), then talk about appearance is irrelevant. But when you pay to go and see it, of course it matters very much.