Surely not - Archers 20th April - Widor toccata

[Dave2002]

Tonight's Archers - R4 - has the sound of Widor's toccata from his fifth symphony.

Maybe I missed something - but surely this is outside the range of most small village organists. Further, the previous organist - Phil Archer - apparently played for 35 years and it was one of his favourite pieces - though that doesn't necessarily mean he played it. Seems he managed to do that, and also run a farm. Must have been extraordinarily talented!

It could be, of course, that tonight's performance was by a guest organist, for the inauguration of the new Ambridge organ. I may also be under estimating the abilities of many organists, but my limited experience suggests that finding people of playing some parts of the organ repertoire well is difficult, though I would expect cathedral organists to be able to play a wide range and have the technical ability to do so.

Have the beeb given an over optimistic misrepresentation of the abilities of small village church organists - plus perhaps also the sound of the organ - which was probably a recording from a large church or cathedral?

[subcontrabass]

From my recollection from my days as a "village organist" (when I was still at school) the Toccata is not too technically demanding (unless you play it at breakneck speed). It was requested for a wedding shortly after it had been made fashionable by its use for the wedding of the Duke and Duchess of Kent in 1961. The big problem I found was the physical demand of playing it on a heavy tracker action. Fortunately I had three months to build up the necessary wrist strength.

[Dave2002]

From my recollection from my days as a "village organist" (when I was still at school) the Toccata is not too technically demanding (unless you play it at breakneck speed). It was requested for a wedding shortly after it had been made fashionable by its use for the wedding of the Duke and Duchess of Kent in 1961. The big problem I found was the physical demand of playing it on a heavy tracker action. Fortunately I had three months to build up the necessary wrist strength.

Thanks - that's interesting to know. However at our wedding the organist had great problems with some of the Bach pieces I suggested, and I don't think they were particularly demanding, but somewhat unknown - certainly to him, and he struggled through them bravely. I have also heard some well known music - such as Dvorak's New World Symphony massacred by organists who think they have to turn it into a dirge at a funeral. Maybe that (slow movement) really just doesn't work on a small organ.

I also used to sit in the organ loft with a pianist friend (early 20s) who was learning to play the organ. He was fairly good, but I'm sure that such pieces would have been a bit beyond him.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I've heard Wayne Marshall play the complete 5th symphony on the organ of a small Hampshire village church (Winchfield).

[clive heath]

I think the Kents might have been prompted by the Wedding of Princess Margaret to Anthony Armstrong-Jones a year earlier which I caught part of on a department store telly in Guildford ( Harvey's?). A later wedding I attended had the newlyweds parade down to "Blanziflor and Helena" from Carmina Burana (on organ only), OK, you had to be there! Actually, the couple also chose "One Hand, One Heart" and to hear it sung by a small village choir was magic.

[subcontrabass]

I think the Kents might have been prompted by the Wedding of Princess Margaret to Anthony Armstrong-Jones a year earlier which I caught part of on a department store telly in Guildford ( Harvey's?). A later wedding I attended had the newlyweds parade down to "Blanziflor and Helena" from Carmina Burana (on organ only), OK, you had to be there! Actually, the couple also chose "One Hand, One Heart" and to hear it sung by a small village choir was magic.

Princess Margaret and Anthony Armstrong Jones processed out to "Trumpet Tune" by Jeremiah Clarke (as can be seen and heard towards the end of this documentary video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbF67xOUwnc ).

[Petrushka]

Princess Margaret and Anthony Armstrong Jones processed out to "Trumpet Tune" by Jeremiah Clarke (as can be seen and heard towards the end of this documentary video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbF67xOUwnc ).

I think that's Purcell's Trumpet Tune and Air. This was a favourite at many weddings I attended as a chorister.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pPdeKYnGVI

[ahinton]

I once heard Kevin Bowyer play the finale of Widor's Fifth Organ Symphony as wedding outro music at a rate of knots that made me wonder if divorce proceedings might be commenced by the time he'd finished (though not a note out of place); he also spoke to me of the virtue of playing it with the hands reversed once in a while and of the idea of playing it in F# major (though not, as far as I recall, both at the same time)...

[clive heath]

Sorry if I'm wrong but

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_for_Organ_No._5_(Widor)

has it. ( HENCE: put not your trust in wiki!)

[subcontrabass]

I think that's Purcell's Trumpet Tune and Air. This was a favourite at many weddings I attended as a chorister.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pPdeKYnGVI

Attributions of composer seem to vary. Try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZaJTKzWGQw

[Petrushka]

Attributions of composer seem to vary. Try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZaJTKzWGQw

I know there is endless confusion over the Trumpet Voluntary (The Prince of Denmark's March) with it long being attributed to Purcell until only in recent decades being attributed to Jeremiah Clarke but I was never aware of a similar problem over the Trumpet Tune and Air which I've never (until just now) seen attributed to anyone other than Purcell.

[Dave2002]

I've heard Wayne Marshall play the complete 5th symphony on the organ of a small Hampshire village church (Winchfield).

I'm sure that virtuoso organists can do this. The point about the Archers is that it's about a small village in the middle of nowhere (I rather wish it would get blasted to outer space sometime ...) and I'm sceptical about the apparent sudden appearance of a very competent organist, and as far as I know with no explanation. I suppose also that if we had enough examples of the organ used we'd find it sounded very different each time it comes around. It would probably have cost more to pay someone with lesser talents to play an instrument to give a more "realistic" effect than simply to insert a version from one of the many available recordings and pay air time fees.

To add a slight tangent to the discussion, do many churches renovate organs these days?
I thought the trend was to abandon old organs unless they are of real historical or musical importance and replace them by electronic instruments. Organ renovation is, I think, a rather expensive pastime, and again I'm not sure that a modest village could really afford this - though some undoubtedly could.

[ahinton]

I'm sure that virtuoso organists can do this. The point about the Archers is that it's about a small village in the middle of nowhere (I rather wish it would get blasted to outer space sometime ...)

In which case it has no business having a church, let alone an organ, surely?(!)...

To add a slight tangent to the discussion, do many churches renovate organs these days?

I thought the trend was to abandon old organs unless they are of real historical or musical importance and replace them by electronic instruments. Organ renovation is, I think, a rather expensive pastime, and again I'm not sure that a modest village could really afford this - though some undoubtedly could.

It is indeed a very expensive pastime. £2.5m or thereabouts for the RFH one, though towards the upper end, is at least a guide. It's the kind of thing that only well-heeled cathedrals and other fairly large and important churches can manage to do and it's far from easy even for them to attract the necessary funding. It's not just refurbishments, though - it's also redesigns, often on the advice of the incumbent. Places like Hereford Cathedral and St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol have in recent years spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on their instruments; given that the average village church instrument is at best probably around one quarter to one third of the size of these, the cost of major overhauling will still be in five figures, so it's not going to me met from the collection plate takings!

[Pabmusic]

I'm sorry to be so unknowlageable about The Archers (I thought that was Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger ) but did we hear how he played it?

[ahinton]

I'm sorry to be so unknowlageable about The Archers (I thought that was Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger ) but did we hear how he played it?

"We" didn't - and why apologise for this? That said, they should have paid Kevin Bowyer to play it (just to illustrate how common it is for English village organists to play Sorabji); after all, Bowyers have to come before Archers...