A London Symphony - 100th anniversary

[Roehre]

If only Mr Payne was of the same mind !

AFAIK he is a composer who's always right

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

If only Mr Payne was of the same mind !

Are you suggesting Elgar went to the trouble of preparing a third symphony with the intention of leaving it as a few untidy sketches?

[visualnickmos]

......If composers were always right, why do they revise their works, like Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Liszt, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Dvorak, Elgar, Mahler, RStrauss, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Ives, Rachmaninov, Bartok, Bax, Hartmann, Barber, Bliss, Copland, Bernstein, Britten, Boulez, Ligeti, Henze, to mention only a few?

You've answered your own question; it is precisely that they do revise their works, that proves they aim to present the work in question, in it's final finished version as they want it to be. By no means was I suggesting that the first version is THE version. So, in this I stand by my assertion that the composer is always right. As an artist, no-one, but no-one can come along and correct something that is my own creation, by saying something like, "oh, that blue should be lighter" If I had wanted it lighter, I would have painted it lighter.

[visualnickmos]

Are you suggesting Elgar went to the trouble of preparing a third symphony with the intention of leaving it as a few untidy sketches?

C'est possible. Or, he may not have banked on dying just yet.

Good thread, this one.....

[Roehre]

You've answered your own question; it is precisely that they do revise their works, that proves they aim to present the work in question, in it's final finished version as they want it to be. By no means was I suggesting that the first version is THE version. So, in this I stand by my assertion that the composer is always right. As an artist, no-one, but no-one can come along and correct something that is my own creation, by saying something like, "oh, that blue should be lighter" If I had wanted it lighter, I would have painted it lighter.

Except that many of the composers I mentioned were not sure about what they had made was exactly what they had in mind, like Mahler or Bruckner or Sibelius, to mention just some examples at random.
Some insight in a composer's workshop make it quite clear that the compositional choices they make are subject to doubts, sometimes severe doubts. Doubts are bad guides. The choices made can be the best, but also less so. Hence the composer may have the feeling or even knows he might not be right - though the performer(s) or the listeners might not be aware of this.
The composer is always right????????

[Pabmusic]

I always find , however, if I listen to the Hickox more than twice I am yearning for the revised version . Lovely as the rejected music is the piece is so much tauter in the revised version .

And I agree, too. But (as I said in post 14) I have a fondness for the 1920 version, which I think was the second 'revised version' and the first to be printed. I think it tightens up the scherzo and finale without losing much.

The official "Revised Version' (meant to indicate a revision of the 1920 published score) loses just a bit too much in my view. Dan Godfrey's recording of the 1920 version makes one cut, interestingly of the same 23 bars of the Epilogue RVW would later make for the 1933 version (Goossens has it complete but omits the Scherzo repeat).

The Wiki article is quite accurate and includes good information about the cuts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony

[visualnickmos]

Except that many of the composers I mentioned were not sure about what they had made was exactly what they had in mind, ........ choices they make are subject to doubts, sometimes severe doubts....... the composer may have the feeling or even knows he might not be right - though the performer(s) or the listeners might not be aware of this.
The composer is always right????????

That is the prerogative of an artist/writer/composer, etc, etc. If they create something it is theirs to do/present/have views on, etc that cannot be challenged by any form of "I know better" attitude. If that is the case the answer is simply "if you don't like it, don't listen to it, don't look at it" or even more extreme - "go and write your own symphony" or "paint your own picture" - if you can! Then you can have it how YOU want.

[seabright]

And I agree, too. But (as I said in post 14) I have a fondness for the 1920 version, which I think was the second 'revised version' and the first to be printed. I think it tightens up the scherzo and finale without losing much.

The official "Revised Version' (meant to indicate a revision of the 1920 published score) loses just a bit too much in my view. Dan Godfrey's recording of the 1920 version makes one cut, interestingly of the same 23 bars of the Epilogue RVW would later make for the 1933 version (Goossens has it complete but omits the Scherzo repeat).

The Wiki article is quite accurate and includes good information about the cuts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_London_Symphony

The Wiki article fails to mention that Sir Henry Wood in his 1936 recording (Dutton CDAX 8004) also did not make the Scherzo repeat for the obvious reason of getting the whole movement onto one 78rpm side. Goossens (Biddulph WHL 016) was obliged to do the same, with both conductors going over the 5-minute mark as it was and thus pushing the groove limits to their maximum. The more usual side duration for 78rpm sides in those days was about 4-and-a-half minutes. Whether Wood's cut of several bars in the slow movement was due to the same side-lengths reason is something we don't know.

The Biddulph CD is well worth finding, not only for the few minutes of extra music in the 1920 edition of RVW2 that were omitted from the revised score, but also for the coupling. This was the original version of Walton's Violin Concerto with Heifetz and the Cincinnati Orchestra, again under Goossens, made the day before the RVW "London" was recorded. I'm not up-to-date on what other US orchestras have recorded RVW's "London" but the exhilarating 1989 Cleveland Orchestra broadcast under Slatkin on You Tube suggests he ought to have recorded his complete RVW cycle there, rather than here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aGycjQLOGU

[Roehre]

That is the prerogative of an artist/writer/composer, etc, etc. If they create something it is theirs to do/present/have views on, etc that cannot be challenged by any form of "I know better" attitude. If that is the case the answer is simply "if you don't like it, don't listen to it, don't look at it" or even more extreme - "go and write your own symphony" or "paint your own picture" - if you can! Then you can have it how YOU want.

Who is challenging them to do it better? (Well, we've got some Bruckner friends doing exactly that).
The only thing I am seriously in doubt about is whether a composer in his/her own mind is without doubt about the solutions he/she found for the encountered problems. In other words: no doubts at all whether they've found/used the best possible way to proceed/develop/end a work. The composer is always right?????? They are doubting it themselves. They are human after all.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The only thing I am seriously in doubt about is whether a composer in his/her own mind is without doubt about the solutions he/she found for the encountered problems. In other words: no doubts at all whether they've found/used the best possible way to proceed/develop/end a work. The composer is always right?????? They are doubting it themselves.

Whilst it may be true that in some instances, some of the great composers have sometimes had doubts about some moments in some of their own work, visnick's point remains valid: who has or even could come up with better solutions to those problematic areas than those offered by the composers themselves? Is the Haas Bruckner #8 a better solution to the "problem" of that work than either of Bruckner's own solutions? Even when they doubt their own work, the great composers are always more right than anyone else!!!!!!

They are human after all.

When they were washing, cooking, drinking, doing the shopping, chatting someone up, yes. But there's something miraculous that happens when these exceptional individuals put quill/pen to paper (and fingertip to computer keyboard) - no one else gets close. That's why the Eroica is so much better than Furtangler, Karajan, Klemperer, Krivine, Toscanini, Pretre, Böhm, Gardiner, Norrington, Kripps, Bruggens, Bernstein ALL PUT TOGETHER could imagine.

[aeolium]

Whilst it may be true that in some instances, some of the great composers have sometimes had doubts about some moments in some of their own work, visnick's point remains valid: who has or even could come up with better solutions to those problematic areas than those offered by the composers themselves? Is the Haas Bruckner #8 a better solution to the "problem" of that work than either of Bruckner's own solutions? Even when they doubt their own work, the great composers are always more right than anyone else!!!!!!

The only caveat to that I would make is: what about when there are multiple versions (by a composer) of a work, e.g. Schumann's revision of the D minor symphony. Which of these is "more right"?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The only caveat to that I would make is: what about when there are multiple versions (by a composer) of a work, e.g. Schumann's revision of the D minor symphony. Which of these is "more right"?

Play 'em both regularly and let everyone else have fun arguing about it! (I'm of the opinion that first ideas are usually the better ones, except for those occasions when they're not. )

[visualnickmos]

Play 'em both regularly and let everyone else have fun arguing about it! (I'm of the opinion that first ideas are usually the better ones, except for those occasions when they're not. )

ferney - you are bang-on with that reply! If a master patissier comes up with a fabulous recipe, he may say "well, you can add cream, or yaourt natur - you decide"

[Roehre]

Play 'em both regularly and let everyone else have fun arguing about it! (I'm of the opinion that first ideas are usually the better ones, except for those occasions when they're not. )

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I wouldn't like to hear Elgar's Enigma Variations performed regularly with the original ending:



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