Handel operas - language

[Despina dello Stagno]

"Jewish" Oratorio Market?
Are you trying to say that Handel used Old Testament Themes for his Oratorios? Or that the patrons for the Oratorios were primarily Jewish?

Neither, exactly. So far as I am aware, the oratorios did not have a primarily Jewish audience. Handel did consciously choose O.T.subjects, Deborah and Israel in Egypt come to mind which, in their subject matter, were calculated to appeal to a segment of the population whom opera had not attracted**. He also attempted to maximise attendance by Christians who would not attend the opera. There was considerable resistance thereto: many non-conformists considered Messiah idolatrous at least (so far as I can detect) until the Handel commemoration, 1784.

**I can't quote chapter and verse tonight, but I may be able to dig out citations, if this is important to you.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'd put Haydn ahead of him, ferney.

All of Haydn's operas, written for an Austria-Hungary context (ie German speaking), were composed to Italian libretti.

Yes - as were Mozart's: only the singspiels used German libretti.

They strike me as musically excellent and more convincing dramatically than Handel's. The main problem in my experience is that they are usually performed with second-rate singers, musicians, designers, producers etc.

I know the Haydn operas only from recordings (specifically, Dorati's) - and admitedly not at all well: they've always struck me as containing wonderful arias & ensembles that don't hang together as an integrated work. (Mind you, there was a time when I'd've said the same thing about The Seasons, so maybe I should give them another, more careful, listening.)

[richardfinegold]

Neither, exactly. So far as I am aware, the oratorios did not have a primarily Jewish audience. Handel did consciously choose O.T.subjects, Deborah and Israel in Egypt come to mind which, in their subject matter, were calculated to appeal to a segment of the population whom opera had not attracted**. He also attempted to maximise attendance by Christians who would not attend the opera. There was considerable resistance thereto: many non-conformists considered Messiah idolatrous at least (so far as I can detect) until the Handel commemoration, 1784.

**I can't quote chapter and verse tonight, but I may be able to dig out citations, if this is important to you.

Handel used Old Testament themes frequently. Saul, Judas Maccabeus, Judith are some others that you didn't mention. I don't think he was alone in this practice.
There certainly was not a large enough Jewish presence in England at that time--or any time, for that matter--for a Composer to cater to that audience to earn his daily bread

[Despina dello Stagno]

Handel used Old Testament themes frequently. Saul, Judas Maccabeus, Judith are some others that you didn't mention. I don't think he was alone in this practice.
There certainly was not a large enough Jewish presence in England at that time--or any time, for that matter--for a Composer to cater to that audience to earn his daily bread

I was giving the more appropriate examples rather than providing an exhaustive list. I can't think of a single N.T. setting for this date: it would have been considered unacceptable. There was a deliberate veering away from classical and mythological subject matter towards that which might attract new audiences, either with "religious" content (O.T.), or abstract (Allegro/penseroso; Time and truth). I did not argue that Handel catered for an exclusively or even significantly Jewish audience. But he was a shrewd businessman, and subscribed to the adage "every little helps".

[David-G]

I must admit I get more than a little confused by the way opera producers often go out of their way to ensure as close as can be achieved approximations to HIPP where the music is concerned, but cast such considerations to one side when it comes to all other aspects of the production.

I once put this point to Jonathan Miller and asked him to explain it. He answered me - but it was not a satisfactory explanation.

[David-G]

I'd put Haydn ahead of him, ferney. All of Haydn's operas, written for an Austria-Hungary context (ie German speaking), were composed to Italian libretti.

They strike me as musically excellent and more convincing dramatically than Handel's. The main problem in my experience is that they are usually performed with second-rate singers, musicians, designers, producers etc.

I would love to believe you - but I have yet to see a production of a Haydn opera that really convinced me as a drama. Whereas Handel operas can be stunning dramatically - I am thinking in particular of the Glyndebourne productions of Giulio Cesare, Rodelinda and Theodora, each of which I have seen several times. Just thinking of the scene where Antonacci as Rodelinda was mourning her husband by the grey monument by the grey sea makes me reach for my hankie... Or Lorraine Hunt in Theodora, who literally held the whole opera house spellbound...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd8L9qMcm1M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6fCCp45oEU

[aeolium]

I would love to believe you - but I have yet to see a production of a Haydn opera that really convinced me as a drama. Whereas Handel operas can be stunning dramatically - I am thinking in particular of the Glyndebourne productions of Giulio Cesare, Rodelinda and Theodora, each of which I have seen several times. Just thinking of the scene where Antonacci as Rodelinda was mourning her husband by the grey monument by the grey sea makes me reach for my hankie... Or Lorraine Hunt in Theodora, who literally held the whole opera house spellbound...

I quite agree, David-G. The idea that Handel's operas are unstageable is one that for me fails to comprehend the artificial nature of opera as a genre as well as the qualities of a composer who I think was one of the greatest musical dramatists. Handel's operas, however located within Baroque conventions of opera seria, are just as full of emotional intensity as any later musical work for the stage with a great variety of human passions on display - and it is this, and the tensions between the characters, which triumph over the often bizarre plots and theatrical spectacle, and here imv Handel's operas far surpass those of Haydn both musically and dramatically. The plotting in any case is no more bizarre than that of plenty of other well-known operas, from Die Zauberflöte to German romantic operas, the Ring, lots of Verdi. I have seen some daft productions of Handel operas but also some that have been very convincing and powerful.

Perhaps one enterprise that would be worth considering would be to look again at how the operas were staged in Handel's time. As Jonathan Keates wrote, "the ultimate success of opera seria...depended upon the tension between the world of illusion created by the stage picture and the affective realism [i.e convincing portrayal of characters' feelings] produced by the composer and the librettist. To this end the scenes were changed in full view of the audience...This enchantment was further emphasized by the whole nature of eighteenth-century scenic design with its stress on complexity and apparently unlimited perspective, intended to give the spectator something for his fancy continually to dwell upon. As [contemporary writer] Stefano Arteaga...described it: "The secret...is to present objects in such a way that the imagination does not end at the same point as the senses, so that there is always something left for the audience to imagine beyond what the eye can see and the ear can hear." I think as David-G has said that some productions have managed to achieve this.

[Flosshilde]

I once put this point to Jonathan Miller and asked him to explain it. He answered me - but it was not a satisfactory explanation.

Somebody once referred to JM as the only man who's hands were too loud for the deaf.

Sorry - a bit OT.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I once put this point to Jonathan Miller and asked him to explain it. He answered me - but it was not a satisfactory explanation.

Can we push you on this one? I'd be interested to hear JM's explanation.

[Dave2002]

Or Lorraine Hunt in Theodora, who literally held the whole opera house spellbound...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd8L9qMcm1M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6fCCp45oEU

Bit of Coleman balls here! Was she a witch?

[jean]

Come now. There's a special thread for that sort of thing.

[Dave2002]

Come now. There's a special thread for that sort of thing.

Sorry, she could of course have been a fairy, white witch, wizard, or some other form of dabbler in magic arts.

Witches do seem quite popular though - http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2...filmandmusic14

http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/the__horn/archive/2009/10/31/demons-devils-and-witches-in-opera.aspx

Fairies also feature:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fairy-Queen

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/200413/The-Fairies

http://www.theopera101.com/operas/dream/

I couldn't quite find a female equivalent of G&S - The Sorcerer- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorcerer

[David-G]

Bit of Coleman balls here! Was she a witch?

No balls at all. A witch would not have had more of an effect.