New releases

[Beef Oven!]

Quite, and there was that renowned American conductor Sir Charles Mackerras. Getting back to Martina, she most definitely is a Czech and an American citizen. Having had her Czekoslovak citizenship revoked in 1975, she acquired Czech citizenship in 2008 while retaining her American citizenship. Oh, and strictly, it was Martina Šubertová who was born Czeckoslovakian, not Martina Navrátilová.

I think it's a question of degree. As a rule of thumb once someone has pretty much become a young adult, they can't really change their nationality. Sure they can get a different passport or apply to become a member of a newly invented country like the Czech Rep, but they stay what they are. Not an exact science and best operated on a case by case basis. The Martina Navratilova example is an excellent one. She simply spent too much of her life being Czechoslovakian to subsequently be considered as anything else. Same goes for Varese, although he was never Czechoslovakian and died before the Czech Republic was invented

She was a virtually undefeatable Czechoslovakian super-sports star from the almost limitless 1970s eastern bloc supply of athletes. Then one day she applied for and was granted a US passport!

[richardfinegold]

I think it's a question of degree. As a rule of thumb once someone has pretty much become a young adult, they can't really change their nationality. Sure they can get a different passport or apply to become a member of a newly invented country like the Czech Rep, but they stay what they are. Not an exact science and best operated on a case by case basis. The Martina Navratilova example is an excellent one. She simply spent too much of her life being Czechoslovakian to subsequently be considered as anything else. Same goes for Varese, although he was never Czechoslovakian and died before the Czech Republic was invented

She was a virtually undefeatable Czechoslovakian super-sports star from the almost limitless 1970s eastern bloc supply of athletes. Then one day she applied for and was granted a US passport!

The question here is Artistic. There is a difference between someone who has spent their formative years in one culture who then relocated to a completely different cultural milieu. Once someone has hit twenty or so, they have developed their core identity. With Varese, there was a huge Cultural distinction between Belle Époque France and Teddy Roosevelt U.S.A.
Nowadays such Cultural lines may be more more blurred.
As far as the U.S.A. being a nation of immigrants, that ignores the melting pot effect. First generation children of immigrants (again, that has changed somewhat in the last generation or so) quickly Americanize. My grandparents were Eastern European Jews and so I had a fair exposure to their culture. To my ears, there isn’t a trace of it in the music of Copland, Gershwin, or David Diamond, all of whom were first generation. Bernstein does consciously reach into his ‘roots’
but started doing it at a time when Americans of all ethnicities were encouraged to explore their backgrounds.

[Bryn]

The question here is Artistic. There is a difference between someone who has spent their formative years in one culture who then relocated to a completely different cultural milieu. Once someone has hit twenty or so, they have developed their core identity. With Varese, there was a huge Cultural distinction between Belle Époque France and Teddy Roosevelt U.S.A.
Nowadays such Cultural lines may be more more blurred.
As far as the U.S.A. being a nation of immigrants, that ignores the melting pot effect. First generation children of immigrants (again, that has changed somewhat in the last generation or so) quickly Americanize. My grandparents were Eastern European Jews and so I had a fair exposure to their culture. To my ears, there isn’t a trace of it in the music of Copland, Gershwin, or David Diamond, all of whom were first generation. Bernstein does consciously reach into his ‘roots’
but started doing it at a time when Americans of all ethnicities were encouraged to explore their backgrounds.

Re. Gershwin, my ears hear what Joseph Vass and Max Sparber do. In Copland I hear less influence from his Jewish musical heritage, but this reflects his equvical relationship with htat heritage. When it comes to David Diamond, I find it difficult not to hear relections of his jewish musical heritage in his work.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Copland, Gershwin, or David Diamond, all of whom were first generation. Bernstein does consciously reach into his ‘roots’
but started doing it at a time when Americans of all ethnicities were encouraged to explore their backgrounds.

... and did so by going to Paris to study with Boulanger.

An American citizen, writing all the works by which his reputation became assured in America, premiered for the most part in America - and whose Music sounds less "French" than Copland's sounds "Jewish" - Varese is an American composer. And, on the evidence of the works presented in this box, easily and by far one of the very best. Would you really expect to see Arcana in a box of French Music, rfg?

[Bryn]

... and did so by going to Paris to study with Boulanger.

An American citizen, writing all the works by which his reputation became assured in America, premiered for the most part in America - and whose Music sounds less "French" than Copland's sounds "Jewish" - Varese is an American composer. And, on the evidence of the works presented in this box, easily and by far one of the very best. Would you really expect to see Arcana in a box of French Music, rfg?

Or indeed his first work completed in its original version after he emigrated, "Amériques", despite its French title. Indeed, he hever did title a work other than in French, AFAICR.

[HighlandDougie]

Overheard while walking across Blackfriars Bridge to the Southbank yesterday evening, a snippet of a conversation between two young bearded hipsters,"Oh, and then there was some music by this really cool dude called Varèse". So, being a "cool dude" is surely more important than fussing about whether he was French or American?

[richardfinegold]

... and did so by going to Paris to study with Boulanger.

An American citizen, writing all the works by which his reputation became assured in America, premiered for the most part in America - and whose Music sounds less "French" than Copland's sounds "Jewish" - Varese is an American composer. And, on the evidence of the works presented in this box, easily and by far one of the very best. Would you really expect to see Arcana in a box of French Music, rfg?

I think the "American" association with Varese stems more from the promotional efforts of Frank Zappa than any intrinsic musical quality. To my ears, Varese is ultra European, but ymmv. I wonder what the perception of him would be if his sole champion (amongst well known musicians) was confined to Boulez, and the Zappa association was Zapped

[Richard Barrett]

I think the "American" association with Varese stems more from the promotional efforts of Frank Zappa than any intrinsic musical quality. To my ears, Varese is ultra European, but ymmv. I wonder what the perception of him would be if his sole champion (amongst well known musicians) was confined to Boulez, and the Zappa association was Zapped

Don't you think the fact that Varèse took American citizenship in 1927 has anything to do with it? Varèse appears in the book Perspectives on American Composers in 1971, at a time when Frank Zappa was still relatively obscure.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So, being a "cool dude" is surely more important than fussing about whether he was French or American?

You are, of course, quite right. And if only SONY had titled the box, "Leonard Slatkin: the Cool Dude Collection", we need never have had this conversation.

[Bryn]

I think the "American" association with Varese stems more from the promotional efforts of Frank Zappa than any intrinsic musical quality. To my ears, Varese is ultra European, but ymmv. I wonder what the perception of him would be if his sole champion (amongst well known musicians) was confined to Boulez, and the Zappa association was Zapped

Hmm, I was quite unaware of the music of Frank Zappa until, waxing lyrical about Varèse to a Scratch Orchestra colleague, he mentioned that he had never heard anything by Varèse but new the name from quotes within the gatefold of a double album called Freak Out. He then proceeded to play the album and I was able to advise him that while he may not have knowingly heard anything by Varèse, there were more than a few allusions to his music on those very discs. So started my interest in the music of FVZ. Having heard Octandre, and Poème électronique (the latter preceded by the last few notes of Hyperprism) on the Third Programme, my first live encounter with the music of Varèse was at a Prom in 1966 (Ecuatorial and Déserts).

[cloughie]

You are, of course, quite right. And if only SONY had titled the box, "Leonard Slatkin: the Cool Dude Collection", we need never have had this conversation.

...and it is certainly on my possibles list but I'll check prices post-release, as I will als the forthcoming Berlioz Munch box!

[Bryn]

Re. Varèse, I note that él are soon to release a 3 CD set of vintage recordings including those which first brought his work to Zappa's attention, plus the '60s Craft recordings, the Scherchen Déserts etc. They are most likely to be derived from vinyl rather than the master tapes, so not up to the Craft set licenced by Sony which was released a few years ago but probably still worth getting. Apart fro anything else, for the Bernstein Arcana and Slonimsky Ionisation.The set can be found at amazon.co.uk, ASIN: B079VD4L73.

[jayne lee wilson]

Looks interesting doesn't it? Despite similar appearance to the LA/Salonen 4th, these are all new recordings of Symphonies 1-4 made in Wrocław in 2015-16, available on Qobuz now. ECM have a generic cover for their Pärt releases... I want to go back to the start of Holmboe's Chamber Concertos and play them all over again really, but I'll have to fit this in somewhere...
I don't think there's any doubt about Pärt being Estonian is there...?

[Beef Oven!]

Looks interesting doesn't it? Despite similar appearance to the LA/Salonen 4th, these are all new recordings of Symphonies 1-4 made in Wrocław in 2015-16, available on Qobuz now. ECM have a generic cover for their Pärt releases... I want to go back to the start of Holmboe's Chamber Concertos and play them all over again really, but I'll have to fit this in somewhere...
I don't think there's any doubt about Pärt being Estonian is there...?

Hi Jayne

Which Lutoslawski release are you referring to?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hi Jayne
Which Lutoslawski release are you referring to?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arvo-Part-Symphony-No-4/dp/B003NHY6HK

("LA" = "Los Angeles")