SACD vs Standard CD

[johnb]

I spent many months with Spotify Premium on a Logitech Squeezebox Touch, which was "in the same ball park" as my CD player. I thought, and still think, my CD player was better, but that might be placebo... especially since the the Touch was discontinued...

Just in case you aren't aware - although the Touch was discontinued in 2012 (from memory) there has been continuing development of LMS and plugins (including Qobuz, iPlayer, Spotify, etc). Many people are still using their Touch player with the much improved current versions of LMS, others are using Rasp Pi + HAT board with picoreplayer (incorporating Squeezelite) as a (higher quality) Touch replacement, yet others are using one of commercial players that support Squeezelite. (Squeezelite is a software SB player emulator).

I am very attached to the versatility of the SB eco-system and the iPeng (on an iPad) user interface so am toying with replacing my Touch with a Rasp Pi +HiFiBerry, a Metrum Ambre or even a Bryston BDP Pi, all of which support the LMS.

[johnb]

In the case of music, you say you hear the additional detail, but that can only mean you *are* hearing high res sounds. That goes against the published paper I quoted earlier, humans just can't do this. Unless you have the famed Golden Ears!

Although I agree that by definition one cannot hear frequencies beyond human hearing, it is quote possible that HiRes and Red Book data interact differently with the filters within the DAC.

[Ian_of_glos]

That doesn't make sense to me at all.

If you look at a TV set where the resolution is gradually, and incrementally, increased there will come a point where you can't tell the current resolution from the previous resolution. Magnify the screen and you will see that the higher resolution is indeed higher, but there is NO WAY you would tell that higher resolution form the lower resolution without magnification, the pictures look just as "natural" in lower as in higher. It doesn't matter if the broadcasters sends out an image at higher or lower resolution, there is no way you will see the difference.

In the case of music, you say you hear the additional detail, but that can only mean you *are* hearing high res sounds. That goes against the published paper I quoted earlier, humans just can't do this. Unless you have the famed Golden Ears!

Using your analogy, I can easily tell the difference between an HD channel and the standard equivalent, even from a distance. Why can't the same be true of sound?

[jayne lee wilson]

I disagree, if they could send a man to the moon, within ten years, in the 1960s, then you'd think engineers could develop a near optimal CD player in the 1980s. To me, at least, they sound as if they did. My 1990s NAD 5420 CD player sounds great!

I'm glad it does - if you enjoy it, stick with it (I know the NAD models - nearly bought a successor to yours; finally got an Arcam Alpha 8 instead..then upgraded to the legendary AA 9....) - but Mal...things have moved on...

My T&A DAC8 (design release: 2012) offers 4 filter settings: the standard linear one most CD players use (flat frequency response, relatively poor impulse response i.e. timing); a shortened version of that (better spaciousness and attack, slight loss of immediacy and tangibility); then two Bezier-type filters, one with HF lift, one pure-impulse-response with early roll-off, the latter excellent for timing, immediacy, dynamics and smoothness of lossless/CD/R3 AAC etc.

Point is you can choose the response to suit your ears, sources, room and specific recordings. It soon becomes a pleasure to do so. But I don't use the commonest standard CD filter at all now (poor timing etc).
For some years, I've used Max Townshend Supertweeters atop my Harbeth C7 MkIIes speakers. Which has confirmed the effect UHF frequencies have on the sub 20khz region - including LF. (You match their output to your speaker sensitivity). Try switching them off.... you soon switch them back on! .

Later Harbeth models (e.g. the Super HL5) now incorporate super tweeters in the design itself; and close relatives of these Harbeths (M30, M40 etc) are used widely in recording studios around the world.......

(Ian's visual analogy is very apt...)

[Mal]

Using your analogy, I can easily tell the difference between an HD channel and the standard equivalent, even from a distance. Why can't the same be true of sound?

I didn't specify HD vs. standard.

They've performed the double blind experiment with CD sound vs. SACD sound and found no difference. They might be wrong, of course, and maybe you are hearing a difference. But I'd just like to put forward the possibility that you are suffering from a placebo effect.

[HighlandDougie]

Mal - forgive the impertinent question but have you ever sat down and listened to an SACD, played back through a decent machine (like Ian's Marantz number)? No issue if you haven't but what is your beef against SACD, other than the fact that there are learned papers saying that it is so much snake oil?

[MickyD]

I confess to not understanding any of this thread, but the following comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL5SzTSMxLU

Happily, I have just discovered that it was recorded on the very day I was born.

[HighlandDougie]

I confess to not understanding any of this thread, but the following comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL5SzTSMxLU

Happily, I have just discovered that it was recorded on the very day I was born.

Nor do I. But love the F&S clip! And you such a mere child ...

[jayne lee wilson]

Mostly content, but now and again something jars.

I spent many months with Spotify Premium on a Logitech Squeezebox Touch, which was "in the same ball park" as my CD player. I thought, and still think, my CD player was better, but that might be placebo... especially since the the Touch was discontinued...

I now do my serious listening through the NAD 5420 CD player + Graham Slee Novo Headphone amp. + Senn HD 650s


I'm fairly content with the way things are, just sometimes something really grates.

For instance, I played Bernstein/VPO/DG 477 5745 yesterday and had to turn if off - digital glare/shrillness was too much. I bought this CD recently based on a positive Spotify Premium listen a few years back. I plugged my Senn HD 650s into my computer and listened to DG 477 5745 on Spotify Free and it sounded "OK" as regards harshness, but the mid-range sounded like weak mud compared to my CD player. I reckon it's mid-eighties DG recording at fault, but i might be wrong. Any wonder-DACs that can fix such shrillness?

This is the Mozart Collection album of 35,36, 40? Sort of bronzey cover?

FYI Mal, setting the T&A DAC8 on the standard linear filter (no tricks...), I tried excerpts of the current lossless stream on Qobuz-Studio and it sounded fine: no glare or HF harshness but a strikingly spacious (more than usually so for the Musikverein), natural well-balanced sound. Briefly looking across the Gramophone reviews over the years, it does seem to have reviewed well for SQ too.

It is important of course to locate the source of any system harshness first - it might not be the NAD, whose 80s/90s CD/Amp models tended to have a genial, easy-on-the ears character, like Arcam..

A similar HF problem bugged me for years during the 90s with my budget separates...... one of the reasons I evolved into an audiophile really.....system interactions can be tricky to solve. Trial and error really.

***
AS for "placebo", anyone throwing a bit of cash at higher-grade hifi usually gets the kit on a Home Trial.... if you don't like it, back it goes....so the placebo doesn't apply.... in fact, often I really wanted to like some famous bit of 2ndhand hi-end kit, all excited about its arrival.... but.....rueful sighs after a fraught few days ... back in its box for the courier... I learnt a lot that way.
Same (back in the day - nearly ten years ago, gosh!) for hi-res files..... you could always get trial samples of these, often for free...IIRC my first was a transfer of Munch hammering out the Spring Symphony...startled at the scherzo-sample, I downloaded the whole thing and went to bed around 0700...start of a great adventure!).

Qobuz, Audirvana etc, offer free trials of course for anyone venturing in...and so on.

[johnb]

Mal,

Out of curiosity I've just listened to the Mozart Symphony No 35 on that disc (c/o Qobuz CD quality). The sound didn't have any particular glare/shrillness on my system - though it isn't exactly silky smooth - and the balance was very much towards the mid range.

(Qobuz CD quality -> Squeezebox Touch -> Metrum Jade DAC -> Bryston 4B SST2 power amp -> PMC OB1i speakers.)

On second thoughts - the violin sound does have a hardness about it, especially in the forte/fortissimo passages.

By the way, how do you listen to Spotify? On your computer? Via your audio system? Premium (set to 320kbps) or free (160 kbps I think)? Also, on Spotify, have you turned the volume normalization off? (I think it is on as an initial default.)

[Mal]

Mal,

Out of curiosity I've just listened to the Mozart Symphony No 35 on that disc (c/o Qobuz CD quality). The sound didn't have any particular glare/shrillness on my system - though it isn't exactly silky smooth - and the balance was very much towards the mid range.

(Qobuz CD quality -> Squeezebox Touch -> Metrum Jade DAC -> Bryston 4B SST2 power amp -> PMC OB1i speakers.)

On second thoughts - the violin sound does have a hardness about it, especially in the forte/fortissimo passages.

By the way, how do you listen to Spotify? On your computer? Via your audio system? Premium (set to 320kbps) or free (160 kbps I think)? Also, on Spotify, have you turned the volume normalization off? (I think it is on as an initial default.)

How does it sound straight out of the Squeezebox? Do you have any audiophile headphones, like Sennheisser HD 650s? If so, how does it sound on those?

I sold my squeezebox, don't have Spotify Premium any more, and only use "free" from my chrome box for infrequent "experiments". I'm now back to using CDs as my only "repectable" quality medium. "You’ll need to be a Spotify Premium user to adjust your volume levels" says a help page... so I can't do what you suggest. Sounds like an intriguing feature though! Do Quboz and tidal have such adjustments? Note 19 out of 20 CDs sound "acceptable to wonderful" on my system, it's just 1 in 20 have enough of this hardness/shrillness/dryness problem to make them unacceptable to me.

Just listening to Strauss choices on Radio 3 at the moment (9.30am) and it reminded me that I also find Karajan's Alpine Symphony a bit dodgy... it's the first digital recording (DG 1981) and Third Ear suggest it is "dry, occluded, and murky, not up to Karajan's conception". Two more adjectives there - "occluded and murky"; I think these describe the Bernstein disk as well! Compare it to the earlier Till from Kempe, which sounded lovely. Third Ear suggests the (early 70s EMI) sound is "a bit dated, though the blurred tonal edges make for easy listening". I agree with the "easy listening", but didn't notice the blurred tonal edges - maybe the Radio 3 stream always has those

Even Furtwangler's live & coughy mono Metamorphosen from 1947 sounds better, to me, than Karajan's hard/shrill/dry/occluded/murky 1983 DG effort - Third Ear compares Karajan's 1947 EMI and 1983 DG performances: "EMI's sound, agreeably distant and rounded, is easier listening than Karajan's 1983 remake (DG 410892)."

Of course, many DG CDs sound great, but there seems to be a problem with some DG CDs from the early 80s.

[visualnickmos]

How does it sound straight out of the Squeezebox? Do you have any audiophile headphones, like Sennheisser HD 650s? If so, how does it sound on those?

I sold my squeezebox, don't have Spotify Premium any more, and only use "free" from my chrome box for infrequent "experiments". I'm now back to using CDs as my only "repectable" quality medium. "You’ll need to be a Spotify Premium user to adjust your volume levels" says a help page... so I can't do what you suggest. Sounds like an intriguing feature though! Do Quboz and tidal have such adjustments? Note 19 out of 20 CDs sound "acceptable to wonderful" on my system, it's just 1 in 20 enough of this hardness/shrillness/dryness problem to make them unacceptable.

Just listening to Strauss choices on Radio 3 at the moment (9.30am) and it reminded me that I also find Karajan's Alpine Symphony a bit dodgy... it's the first digital recording (DG 1981) and Third Ear suggest it is "dry, occluded, and murky, not up to Karajan's conception". Two more adjectives there - "occluded and murky"; I think these describe the Bernstein disk as well! Compare it to the earlier Till from Kempe, which sounded lovely. Third Ear suggests the (early 70s EMI) sound is "a bit dated, though the blurred tonal edges make for easy listening". I agree with the "easy listening", but didn't notice the blurred tonal edges - maybe the Radio 3 stream always has those

Even Furtwangler's live & coughy mono Metamorphosen from 1947 sounds better, to me, than Karajan's hard/shrill/dry/occluded/murky 1983 DG effort - Third Ear compares Karajan's 1947 EMI and 1983 DG performances: "EMI's sound, agreeably distant and rounded, is easier listening than Karajan's 1983 remake (DG 410892)."

Of course, many DG CDs sound great, but there seems to be a problem with some DG CDs from the early 80s.

Very interesting and informed observations, which I go along with.

This is especially noticeable after listening to say, an exemplary EMI, RCA, or Decca recording from even almost 30 years earlier, most of which are pretty well nigh-on faultless.

[johnb]

How does it sound straight out of the Squeezebox? Do you have any audiophile headphones, like Sennheisser HD 650s? If so, how does it sound on those?

I have the Sennheisser HD600 headphones and will use those to listen to the Mozart and Strauss discs later today.

I sold my squeezebox, don't have Spotify Premium any more, and only use "free" from my chrome box for infrequent "experiments". I'm now back to using CDs as my only "repectable" quality medium. "You’ll need to be a Spotify Premium user to adjust your volume levels" says a help page... so I can't do what you suggest. Sounds like an intriguing feature though! Do Quboz and tidal have such adjustments?

From memory, Spotify has its "Normalize Volume" initially set to "On" by default. This aims to play all the tracks ("songs") at the same average volume level - perhaps useful for pop music but a dire for classical, e.g. a quiet slow movement would be boosted to the same volume level as every other movement.

Not only that but I understand that Spotify's "Normalize volume" setting also compresses the dynamic range which makes the whole thing even worse.

So it is a very, very good idea to set the "Normalize volume" to "Off" if at all possible. With Spotify's own Windows Desktop Player this can be done by clicking on the down arrow at the top right - selecting "Settings" and looking for the "Music Quality" heading.

Having said that, I'm not sure whether the option is available to Free subscribers.

The "Volume level" options are probably dependent on "Normalize volume" being enabled. Not good.

As far as I am aware neither of these options are available on Qobuz - thank heavens.

[jayne lee wilson]

A coupla points about early 80s DGs.... first, they may be first-CD-issues of much earlier recordings. The digital mastering was often the problem rather than the recording itself. But I often disliked the later Galleria reissues, and when I sought out the full-yellow-banner ones they often had better sound. Japanese issues often better still.
Many if not all Karajan DG recordings have been remastered (including all the Strauss) most recently in large boxsets (which several people here bought, I think Petrushka got them all ) to widespread critical acclaim.

***

The Bernstein Mozart 35/36/40 Mal mentioned is in fact a 2005 reissue of mid-80s recordings which reviewed very well in the Gramophone on their release. Right here right now, flat-response-setting, they sound fine - the DAC will make a difference in the higher frequencies especially.
My T&A has a "dual-quad" arrangement - that is, four 32bit x 352.8 Dacs per channel...... it is a very highly resolved design for both space and detail. And very clean up top.

T&A's own proprietary design. The Mozart sounds sweetest of all in fast-linear mode - better timing, improved spatial resolution. No.36 is playing now and while it is too big and beefy for me I can certainly appreciate its finely-balanced vivacity!
The point of all this is you have the freedom to switch and choose; many recent DACs offer similar filter choices (The Audiolab M-DAC actually had 7 (playtime! ), which seems a bit OTT even to me...), and they really can rescue older digital recordings from back-of-the-cupboard rejection....

If you only have the one geometry in a player or DAC, it is bound to be selective to some degree. So some records will never sound good on them - which, yes, can be a specific vintage on a specific label. Probably a frequency-response-interaction thing.

(I've noticed in several recent HFN DAC reviews, if there is only one option it is often the early HF roll-off minimal phase one, doubtless intended to help out the pre-supposed early digital HF hardness etc).

BTW, Audirvana (one of the best platforms for Qobuz) also offers a neutral/warm setting choice, in integer mode.

Technology is wonderful sometimes!

[johnb]

How does it sound straight out of the Squeezebox? Do you have any audiophile headphones, like Sennheisser HD 650s? If so, how does it sound on those?

I gave both the Mozart (Qobuz) and Strauss (ripped CD) discs a listen using my Sennheiser HD600 headphones, which are reported to be a little leaner than your HD650s.

(LMS -> Touch -> Metrum Ambre DAC -> Musical Fidelity Headphone Amplifier -> HD600 headphones)

I also compared them to other more recent Mozart and Alpine Symphony recordings and I must say that neither the Bernstein nor the Karajan were all that pleasant on the ears in comparison.