SACD vs Standard CD

[MickyD]

#9 All Silver Discs are on the verge of extinction



I seem to remember this being said quite a few years ago, Richard...thankfully so far it still seems not to be the case.

[Bryn]

#9 All Silver Discs are on the verge of extinction



I seem to remember this being said quite a few years ago, Richard...thankfully so far it still seems not to be the case.

Ah, the blessed Norm was one of the proponents of this, IIRC. Silver discs went the same way as classical music.

[Ian_of_glos]

I always buy the SACD option, if possible, in the hope that when I win the lottery I'll be able to afford a proper SACD set up!

It is good to hear that I am not the only one, and I have now amassed a total of 55 SACDs, all of them hybrids.
My old Marantz CD17 KI signature finally gave up the ghost a few months ago, forcing me to decide whether to have it repaired or to buy something new. In the end I decided to buy another Marantz (the SA 14S1 SE) and this one allows me to play the SACD layer of my hybrid SACDs. To me they do sound better than standard CDs, but I am aware that this might be due to better mastering or I might just be fooling myself in an attempt to justify my purchase. However, to my ears there does seem to be more detail in the SACD recordings and they do not have the harsh edge that if find with some of my standard CDs. The difference is enough to make me favour SACDs over standard CDs whenever a suitable recording is available.

[Ian_of_glos]

#9 All Silver Discs are on the verge of extinction



I seem to remember this being said quite a few years ago, Richard...thankfully so far it still seems not to be the case.

The same thing was said of vinyl in the late 1980s and some of my guests howled with laughter to see that I had kept my entire vinyl collection. However, last time I visited HMV there were literally thousands of vinyl records for sale.
Young people like to express themselves by doing the opposite to what their parents did. So if most households abandoned vinyl in the 1980s then expect their sons and daughters to adopt it as their preferred format.
It is only a matter of time before the same thing happens to downloads, streaming or whatever it is that we are supposed to be using now.

[Bryn]

Not that relevant, really, but I note that Opera Depot is to cease distribution via CD imminently:

https://mailchi.mp/operadepot/60-off-everything-continues-plus-a-new-free-download-1165483?e=452c7dc602

[richardfinegold]

The same thing was said of vinyl in the late 1980s and some of my guests howled with laughter to see that I had kept my entire vinyl collection. However, last time I visited HMV there were literally thousands of vinyl records for sale.
Young people like to express themselves by doing the opposite to what their parents did. So if most households abandoned vinyl in the 1980s then expect their sons and daughters to adopt it as their preferred format.
It is only a matter of time before the same thing happens to downloads, streaming or whatever it is that we are supposed to be using now.

My sympathies are with you, Ian, I prefer Physical Media to streaming, and as I noted in my post, I don’t think that they will disappear. The sales data, however are alarming. CD sales are about 10% of what they were earlier in the Century. One understands that the Industry sees that and concludes that Silver discs aren’t a good business model going forward, and that at the bare minimum they should chuck the niche product, such as SACD

[Ian_of_glos]

My sympathies are with you, Ian, I prefer Physical Media to streaming, and as I noted in my post, I don’t think that they will disappear. The sales data, however are alarming. CD sales are about 10% of what they were earlier in the Century. One understands that the Industry sees that and concludes that Silver discs aren’t a good business model going forward, and that at the bare minimum they should chuck the niche product, such as SACD

Well, I am hoping that this is just a fad that will eventually pass. CDs will probably reappear in 20 years time at a vastly inflated price and sold as the latest must have accessory - just like vinyl has done.
For the time being I have been lucky enough to find most of the recordings I want on CD or SACD, although sometimes I have had to trawl through the second hand listings to find the one I want.
The thing I really miss is being able to go into a proper classical CD shop and ask for advice before making my purchase.
Many years ago I was in Audiosonic in Gloucester, wanting to buy a recording of Das Lied von der Erde but not sure which one to choose. The lady who worked in the shop was always very helpful and she found the 5 or 6 recordings that she had in stock, then played a long extract from each one. Before long 4 or 5 other people who were in the shop at the time moved towards the counter to express their thoughts on each one and to make recommendations. One person even went home to retrieve his favourite recording because Audiosonic did not have that one in stock.
Eventually I made my choice, but what impressed me most was how helpful everyone was and how they pointed out the features that made them prefer one recording over another.
Of course Audiosonic is long gone and I wonder if I will ever have an opportunity to do something like this again.

[jayne lee wilson]

I think you've come to the right place, Ian....

(I would still encourage you to get that Qobuz connection going if you can, I never use iOS for music so I can't advise on using tablets/smartphones (I guess just a matter of downloading the relevant app...but I've always had a modded Macbook to Dac arrangement, using Audirvana as the software), but it is really easy now and you'll get a great deal from it...could a local dealer help with set-up if you're uncertain...?).

The larger point is - take every advantage of any media you like to widen and deepen your love and enjoyment of music...I use Audirvana/Qobuz almost every day (mainly to explore unknown rep and new releases - and BaL shortlists...!), but love playing CDs too - as rfg said, the DACs of (say) the last ten years (under R&D pressure from the rise of computer audio) or so have effected a revolution in the sound of ye olde cd...

..and yes, despite the sheer numbers, I think some of them could become a collectors' item... the thrill of tracking down that coveted 2ndhand early/remastered/import/ disc has not yet died....

[Bryn]

I think you've come to the right place, Ian....

[Stunsworth]

The simple answer is that companies that produced SACDs but have dropped them have done so because they weren't selling in large enough numbers to justify a double inventory.

Also very few SACDs are recorded and/or edited in 'native' SACD format (DSD), most are high resolution PCM recordings that are then converted to DSD which are then used to produced the SACDs. DSD was originally used by Sony to archive analogue recordings, and it does a very good job at that. People seem happy to download/stream music these days - at all resolutions from MP3 to high resolution PCM and DSD. Silver discs are indeed in decline, but that means it's a very good buyer's market these days - second hand discs are practically being given away.

[Stunsworth]

The only thing that improved a little was getting rid of a lot of the "brick wall" filters which were the bane of commercial CD players, but so what?
You don't have to use that stuff when you can get direct access to the data on the CD quite easily and write it to a sound file format like 16 bit wav, for HD access anyhow.

You still need a filter if you're reading ripped digital files from a computer and converting them to analogue. That requires a DAC just as much as digital information on a CD, and that DAC will contain a filter.

[Dave2002]

You still need a filter if you're reading ripped digital files from a computer and converting them to analogue. That requires a DAC just as much as digital information on a CD, and that DAC will contain a filter.

I think you’re right about the filters in DACs, and to get the best results specific kinds of filters would be needed. However, would it not be the case that the rest of the system would still function as a kind of filter if a specific filter were not in the output of the DAC? If so, then there would still be some recognisable output - just not optimal. Or am I completely wrong?

A while later: I suppose if the amp were a very wide bandwidth model that problems could arise if there wasn’t an explicit filter after the conversion step. Would these be audible, or simply cause other side effects or damage?

[HighlandDougie]

It is good to hear that I am not the only one, and I have now amassed a total of 55 SACDs, all of them hybrids.
My old Marantz CD17 KI signature finally gave up the ghost a few months ago, forcing me to decide whether to have it repaired or to buy something new. In the end I decided to buy another Marantz (the SA 14S1 SE) and this one allows me to play the SACD layer of my hybrid SACDs. To me they do sound better than standard CDs, but I am aware that this might be due to better mastering or I might just be fooling myself in an attempt to justify my purchase. However, to my ears there does seem to be more detail in the SACD recordings and they do not have the harsh edge that if find with some of my standard CDs. The difference is enough to make me favour SACDs over standard CDs whenever a suitable recording is available.

I've hesitated to join in a discussion where words like "cretin" were being bandied around in a way which spoke more of prejudice than considered judgement - but then I'm not a fan of sweeping generalisations and demotic pronunciamentos. I bought a Marantz SA 14S1 SE just under two years ago - and the only reason for replacing it with a Pioneer UDP-LX800 was that the latter plays Blu-Ray discs. The Marantz sounds great (and, Ian, has a very good built-in DAC). My experience of SACD vs CD is the same as that of Ian - they sound better. I have the original Sony SCD-1 player, which allows an easy switch between SACD (2-channel) and CD layers on SACD/CD hybrid discs, so that judgement is based on listening, rather than on a priori judgement about the superiority of SACD vs CD.

Like Richard, I have a decent multichannel set-up (Primare/Audiolab/KEF/Chord cables) - in Scotland, where I have the appropriately sized space, as well as Pioneer, Marantz and Arcam SACD players here in France, which are all 2-channel set-ups. I have some sympathy with EST1 in his general dissing of multi-channel remasterings - but ur-recordings (Channel Classics Ivan Fischer Mahler; Chandos Ed Gardner Janacek et al; BIS Sakari Oramo Nielsen; etc etc) sound pretty OK to me. All three of those labels, plus Challenge Classics and others, have stuck with SACD. Collectively, I suspect that they release more original material than what were, "the majors", i.e. DG/Decca/EMI/Sony, so the fact that the latter have either given up on SACD or have never embraced it in Western Europe/USA means that what they are up to these days is not all that noteworthy. In short, SACD is by no means dead.

In markets where there is an obsession with sound quality (maybe Germany, not really the UK, but Japan and South Korea, say), SACD lives on - Tower Records Japan has various series of remastered material, ex-Universal (Decca/DG) or ex-Warner (EMI). Not expensive in Japan (and obtainable via proxy shopping - Buyee - on the Tower Records website). There are also various Universal SACD remasterings (all 2-channel) available via HMV Japan or Amazon Japan or cdjapan.co.jp - but never specify anything other than plain airmail shipping if you want to avoid customs duty. Then there are the ne plus ultra of SACD remasterings - those by Esoteric. Always limited in number, so they become collectors' items very quickly, with, alas, prices to match. But they sound, simply, wonderful.

As do my current favourite - Japanese UHQCD remasterings using MQA snake oil - but you need something which can process MQA (Mytek, for example). At the end of the day, 24 bit downloads played back via something like Audirvana and a reasonable DAC (and the one in Ian's Marantz is definitely more than "reasonable") sound better than any of the above. I don't do streaming because it relies on a stable internet connection. I have plenty of bandwith but a slightly flaky France Telecom connection so I can't be doing with it.

Anyway, after all that wittering, Ian, stick to SACDs - great player and a wide range of material to choose from - and who cares if DG, Decca, Warner or Sony (except, in all cases, for Japan) have lost interest.

[Ian_of_glos]

I think you've come to the right place, Ian....

(I would still encourage you to get that Qobuz connection going if you can, I never use iOS for music so I can't advise on using tablets/smartphones (I guess just a matter of downloading the relevant app...but I've always had a modded Macbook to Dac arrangement, using Audirvana as the software), but it is really easy now and you'll get a great deal from it...could a local dealer help with set-up if you're uncertain...?).

The larger point is - take every advantage of any media you like to widen and deepen your love and enjoyment of music...I use Audirvana/Qobuz almost every day (mainly to explore unknown rep and new releases - and BaL shortlists...!), but love playing CDs too - as rfg said, the DACs of (say) the last ten years (under R&D pressure from the rise of computer audio) or so have effected a revolution in the sound of ye olde cd...

..and yes, despite the sheer numbers, I think some of them could become a collectors' item... the thrill of tracking down that coveted 2ndhand early/remastered/import/ disc has not yet died....

Thank you for your guidance. It is very much appreciated.
I would like to add something like Qobuz to the options I have available, and develop a way of playing the hi-res flac files that are available. However, I have always shied away from it due to the technical challenges.
There are some second hand tablets in the Cex in town so that might be the best place to start. I can always bribe my children to set it up for me.

[richardfinegold]

I've hesitated to join in a discussion where words like "cretin" were being bandied around in a way which spoke more of prejudice than considered judgement - but then I'm not a fan of sweeping generalisations and demotic pronunciamentos. I bought a Marantz SA 14S1 SE just under two years ago - and the only reason for replacing it with a Pioneer UDP-LX800 was that the latter plays Blu-Ray discs. The Marantz sounds great (and, Ian, has a very good built-in DAC). My experience of SACD vs CD is the same as that of Ian - they sound better. I have the original Sony SCD-1 player, which allows an easy switch between SACD (2-channel) and CD layers on SACD/CD hybrid discs, so that judgement is based on listening, rather than on a priori judgement about the superiority of SACD vs CD.

Like Richard, I have a decent multichannel set-up (Primare/Audiolab/KEF/Chord cables) - in Scotland, where I have the appropriately sized space, as well as Pioneer, Marantz and Arcam SACD players here in France, which are all 2-channel set-ups. I have some sympathy with EST1 in his general dissing of multi-channel remasterings - but ur-recordings (Channel Classics Ivan Fischer Mahler; Chandos Ed Gardner Janacek et al; BIS Sakari Oramo Nielsen; etc etc) sound pretty OK to me. All three of those labels, plus Challenge Classics and others, have stuck with SACD. Collectively, I suspect that they release more original material than what were, "the majors", i.e. DG/Decca/EMI/Sony, so the fact that the latter have either given up on SACD or have never embraced it in Western Europe/USA means that what they are up to these days is not all that noteworthy. In short, SACD is by no means dead.

In markets where there is an obsession with sound quality (maybe Germany, not really the UK, but Japan and South Korea, say), SACD lives on - Tower Records Japan has various series of remastered material, ex-Universal (Decca/DG) or ex-Warner (EMI). Not expensive in Japan (and obtainable via proxy shopping - Buyee - on the Tower Records website). There are also various Universal SACD remasterings (all 2-channel) available via HMV Japan or Amazon Japan or cdjapan.co.jp - but never specify anything other than plain airmail shipping if you want to avoid customs duty. Then there are the ne plus ultra of SACD remasterings - those by Esoteric. Always limited in number, so they become collectors' items very quickly, with, alas, prices to match. But they sound, simply, wonderful.

As do my current favourite - Japanese UHQCD remasterings using MQA snake oil - but you need something which can process MQA (Mytek, for example). At the end of the day, 24 bit downloads played back via something like Audirvana and a reasonable DAC (and the one in Ian's Marantz is definitely more than "reasonable") sound better than any of the above. I don't do streaming because it relies on a stable internet connection. I have plenty of bandwith but a slightly flaky France Telecom connection so I can't be doing with it.

Anyway, after all that wittering, Ian, stick to SACDs - great player and a wide range of material to choose from - and who cares if DG, Decca, Warner or Sony (except, in all cases, for Japan) have lost interest.

HD mentions the Channel Classics. I highly recommend all of Rachel Podger’s Bach, Vivaldi, and Bieber recordings, for both superb audio quality and performance.
Like HD, I listen to SACD in 2 channel and Multichannel. There are a number of SACDS that simply thrive in Multichannel, where the ambience of the rears really does approximate Concert Hall ambience. The best example I can cite is the Brahms Symphony Cycle on Pentatone, with Janowski leading the Pittsburgh Symphony. Having attended a concert in the Hall, these recordings captured the ambience well. The performances are very good, but let’s face it they would get lost in the shuffle competing against 150 or so other Brahms cycles. The exceptional Multichannel sound truly elevates this set