Ravel's Bolero

[Braunschlag]

I am confused. By "backwards" is it meant that the start of the groove is at the inner part of the disc and scrolls out to the edge? That would not be "Backwards", I think. I would only call it "backwards" if the turntable had to revolve anticlockwise. (mine cannot, unless there is a clever way of reversing it I have not yet discovered ), or of course if the music was actually sounding in reverse.

You are correct, backwards is probably the wrong word, it plays from inside to outside, very odd to watch

[Mal]

But first published in 2010 (see the note at the end of the item).

The first incident, according to Wikipedia, happened back in 1985 and involved Sylvia McNair, a two-time Grammy Award-winning soprano.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dutoit#Allegations_of_sexual_assault

Insiders at Gramophone would, surely, have heard the rumours well before 2010. One Montreal journalist has stood up and admitted "everyone knew" but chose to ignore it, including himself:

https://montrealgazette.com/entertainment/local-arts/analysis-music-world-chose-to-ignore-allegations-of-charles-dutoits-misconduct

One female journalist in 1995 was "pawed", with tape recorder on, she wrote it up in a reputable magazine. No one said they thought she made it up, but just seemed to take it as acceptable behaviour from "the maestro"!

And he's still getting top jobs where his abuse of power can continue:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/arts/music/daniele-gatti-charles-dutoit-metoo-orchestra-opera.html

[Master Jacques]

The first incident, according to Wikipedia, happened back in 1985 and involved Sylvia McNair, a two-time Grammy Award-winning soprano.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dutoit#Allegations_of_sexual_assault

Insiders at Gramophone would, surely, have heard the rumours well before 2010. One Montreal journalist has stood up and admitted "everyone knew" but chose to ignore it, including himself:

https://montrealgazette.com/entertainment/local-arts/analysis-music-world-chose-to-ignore-allegations-of-charles-dutoits-misconduct

One female journalist in 1995 was "pawed", with tape recorder on, she wrote it up in a reputable magazine. No one said they thought she made it up, but just seemed to take it as acceptable behaviour from "the maestro"!

And he's still getting top jobs where his abuse of power can continue:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/a...tra-opera.html

And this affects the quality of his Bolero in what way? Must we have these reports on another outbreak of virtue signalling, Mal?

[Mal]

And this affects the quality of his Bolero in what way? ...

"Striving for equanimity might be a worthy goal — something along the lines of continuing to listen, but learning to listen with a new awareness of the capacity for great beauty and deep flaws to flow from the same human source. But it won't be easy. And by even having to consider such an accommodation, much of the pleasure is already draining away."

- https://www.inquirer.com/philly/ente...-20180111.html

With Bolero, there seem to be many good recordings to choose from that don't require accommodation to deep flaws in the conductor. I like to avoid everything that might drain away my pleasure. Listening to Dutoit will have me thinking "this guy abuses young women", repeatedly; this does not conduce to listening pleasure. Note, I am not being virtuous here. I am using a purely hedonistic argument!

[Master Jacques]

"Striving for equanimity might be a worthy goal — something along the lines of continuing to listen, but learning to listen with a new awareness of the capacity for great beauty and deep flaws to flow from the same human source. But it won't be easy. And by even having to consider such an accommodation, much of the pleasure is already draining away."

- https://www.inquirer.com/philly/ente...-20180111.html

With Bolero, there seem to be many good recordings to choose from that don't require accommodation to deep flaws in the conductor. I like to avoid everything that might drain away my pleasure. Listening to Dutoit will have me thinking "this guy abuses young women", repeatedly; this does not conduce to listening pleasure. Note, I am not being virtuous here. I am using a purely hedonistic argument!

Another quote from a fine, American journalist. Very uplifting, thank you. Oh, the delightful shiver of self-righteous indignation.

Mal, I'm sorry if your research into salacious sex allegations from c.1875 tarnishes your enjoyment of Dutoit's performance of Bolero. It's thoughtful of you to disseminate the well-exposed tittle-tattle, in a discussion which might have benefited also from your thoughts on the relative merits of Dutoit's musical - as opposed to his alleged sexual - performance.

Leaving aside your "drained pleasure", how would you place Dutoit's Bolero? For me, it's "fair to average" with a flashy recording. Others I know think more highly of it.

[jayne lee wilson]

The first incident, according to Wikipedia, happened back in 1985 and involved Sylvia McNair, a two-time Grammy Award-winning soprano.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dutoit#Allegations_of_sexual_assault

Insiders at Gramophone would, surely, have heard the rumours well before 2010. One Montreal journalist has stood up and admitted "everyone knew" but chose to ignore it, including himself:

https://montrealgazette.com/entertainment/local-arts/analysis-music-world-chose-to-ignore-allegations-of-charles-dutoits-misconduct

One female journalist in 1995 was "pawed", with tape recorder on, she wrote it up in a reputable magazine. No one said they thought she made it up, but just seemed to take it as acceptable behaviour from "the maestro"!

And he's still getting top jobs where his abuse of power can continue:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/a...tra-opera.html

Thankyou for posting this. I'm a great believer in "innocent until proven guilty" but crimes and misbehaviours of this kind were once appallingly difficult to report or be taken seriously in doing so. It is hardly easy to come forward about it now and extremely stressful to do so. Harvey Weinstein has yet to be charged with anything.

Yes, it is a great shame, a complex matter from the POV of artistic achievement, but impossible for many of us to see the accused artist in the same light, once we've looked carefully at the evidence and tried our best to use our instincts-for-truth about it.
(And yes, I have experienced attempted sexual assault myself, more than once. Unwanted physical contact, worse to experience than you might think, especially in the workplace, has been a depressingly common experience for many).

If you saw the films about Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland, earlier this year you'll know exactly what I mean. But his devotees can't bear to believe it; he is too deeply a part of their own identity.

[Mal]

... a discussion which might have benefited also from your thoughts on the relative merits of Dutoit's musical ... performance... how would you place Dutoit's Bolero? For me, it's "fair to average" with a flashy recording...

There's still time for my thoughts (stop groaning in the audience, please...)

Dutoit also sounded flashy to me, with his abused orchestra putting in a lack lustre performance. Good recording from Decca, and they're mostly in tune, so it's "barely acceptable", or would be until you take non-musical considerations into account. I prefer Jarvi/Detroit to Dutoit; it's not so flashy, and the players sound more involved, maybe they like their maestro. I'd place Jarvi at average to good.

But my only other recording of the Bolero is the winner: Karajan/BPO.

Played back-to-back with the opulent Decca & Chandos recordings of Dutoit and Jarvi I worried it might sound a bit old; but no, the sound quality stands up well in the "DG Originals" remaster. I was disappointed with the snare drum in Dutoit and Jarvi, too quiet at the beginning, and a bit sloppy; not with Karajan, it's really snappy, precise, and mesmerising. And the wind soloists! Best I've heard anywhere in any piece. The massed winds at the end sound like a chorus of banshees and angels, a quite other-worldly, scintillating effect. There are many other factors putting Karajan head, shoulders, and heart above the others... the harpist is superb, for example. But this is certainly one for the "don't like marmite" crowd to try, it turns what can be a mud wallow into a heavenly experience.

The professional critics tend to rave about Karajan's performance, which restores my faith in professional critics. Penguin give it a rosette, saying "Karajan's 1964 Bolero is a hypnotically gripping performance, with the Berlin philharmonic at the top of its form... the couplings on both discs show Karajan at his finest". I have the the coupling with Mussorgksy and Debussy:

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Ravel-Mussorgsky-Pictures-Exhibition-Originals/dp/B000001GQH

Third ear also put Karajan at the top of the heap: "For refined sorcery and hypnotic mood, the palm probably goes to the famous 1964 recording by Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic".

I like Third Ears summary of the qualities of different Boleros, suggesting it stands up to very varied treatment: Munch "hopped up", Bernstein "notably slinky", Boulez "comparatively dignified", Paray "very fast", Monteaux "beautiful". So maybe it's not just marmite? Maybe there's a Bolero spread to suit the taste of marmite haters? "Hypnotic sorcery" does it for me, so I'll stick with Karajan.

[Master Jacques]

I like Third Ears summary of the qualities of different Boleros, suggesting it stands up to very varied treatment: Munch "hopped up", Bernstein "notably slinky", Boulez "comparatively dignified", Paray "very fast", Monteaux "beautiful". So maybe it's not just marmite? Maybe there's a Bolero spread to suit the taste of marmite haters? "Hypnotic sorcery" does it for me, so I'll stick with Karajan.

Thank you, Mal, I've enjoyed that - I haven't heard the Karajan version, and it's clearly another one which needs to be sampled. I fancy you are right about the spread - ha, ha - and if this thread's shown one thing, it's that the piece's surface simplicity doesn't preclude a multitude of different approaches and rewards.

[Pulcinella]

Given my liking of the NYPO Boulez and others' of the BPO Karajan, I'm looking forward to having time for a serious listen to BPO Boulez: will it capture the best of both?

[Mal]

Given my liking of the NYPO Boulez and others' of the BPO Karajan, I'm looking forward to having time for a serious listen to BPO Boulez: will it capture the best of both?

The Third Ear reviewer lumps both Boulezs together under "dignified", and then raves about Karajan's "hypnotic sorcery". So don't raise hopes too high, but let us know how it goes...

[Master Jacques]

The Third Ear reviewer lumps both Boulezs together under "dignified", and then raves about Karajan's "hypnotic sorcery". So don't raise hopes too high, but let us know how it goes...

The two Boulez versions are quite different in effect, both superb, and "dignity" is not what either of them are about, in my opinion. I start to feel uneasy about this Third Ear reviewer. I am interested in Pulcinella's thoughts on what he hears in Boulez and the BPO, though!

[Pulcinella]

The two Boulez versions are quite different in effect, both superb, and "dignity" is not what either of them are about, in my opinion. I start to feel uneasy about this Third Ear reviewer. I am interested in Pulcinella's thoughts on what he hears in Boulez and the BPO, though!

My score is due to arrive today, but it's a busy weekend so I probably won't have time for a serious listen till the middle of next week.

Patronal Festival at the Minster (good music today and tomorrow) and a friend's 70th birthday party on Sunday!


PS: Score has arrived: the Eulenberg edition that includes a recording (RPO/Leaper), so I've now got yet another version to listen to!

[Barbirollians]

Philip Clark in Gramophone clearly did not like the Karajan and puts the boot into it. I was interested by his view on the Bernstein - sensible in all the right ways so I will have to get that one .

In the 1980s the Dutoit Montreal Ravel record’s were all the rage and very much recommended as the ones to have and therefore I am sure to a degree I am imprinted by those records.

Discovery of Monteux’s wonderful Daphnis and Chloe recording,however, showed me there was a lot more about Ravel.

[Master Jacques]

Philip Clark in Gramophone clearly did not like the Karajan and puts the boot into it. I was interested by his view on the Bernstein - sensible in all the right ways so I will have to get that one .

In the 1980s the Dutoit Montreal Ravel record’s were all the rage and very much recommended as the ones to have and therefore I am sure to a degree I am imprinted by those records.

Discovery of Monteux’s wonderful Daphnis and Chloe recording,however, showed me there was a lot more about Ravel.

Snap - that recording made a difference in my feeling towards the ballet, and Ravel's orchestral work in general (before that I only had an old, mono Munch LP which usually only succeeded in irritating me.)

Nobody thus far has mentioned Martinon, whose EMI Bolero with the Paris Orchestra perhaps falls into a "worthwhile for the conducting more than the playing" category. Nothing he ever did is without interest, though: this version is perhaps more liltingly 'dancelike' than most, and refreshingly so. Listening to this one, I rather see Rignold's cover in my mind's eye!

[Pulcinella]

Snap - that recording made a difference in my feeling towards the ballet, and Ravel's orchestral work in general (before that I only had an old, mono Munch LP which usually only succeeded in irritating me.)

Nobody thus far has mentioned Martinon, whose EMI Bolero with the Paris Orchestra perhaps falls into a "worthwhile for the conducting more than the playing" category. Nothing he ever did is without interest, though: this version is perhaps more liltingly 'dancelike' than most, and refreshingly so. Listening to this one, I rather see Rignold's cover in my mind's eye!

The survey that Bryn linked to in his post #78 says this about the Martinon:

Orchestra de Paris /Jean Martinon

A version paying fulsome homage to the Spanish roots of Boléro. Martinon cracks into the score like a bloodthirsty ritual. No room for slackening in the orchestral ranks.