Ravel's Bolero

[Master Jacques]

No, MJ, I think you miss Bbm’s point, however well Bolero is played, it is still Bolero, and if it is not your marmite, then you will not like it. I’m with Bbm!

I think you miss my point, which was to suggest ways in which people who don't like Bolero might get to see why those of us who do, like it (i.e. by focusing on something other than the tune). Or can nobody ever change their mind, or feel the light dawning about a piece they've loathed for years?

(I'd take the same line with somebody who failed to get the point of Marmite, by the way! It's no good saying chacun a son gout without at least giving people a chance to see things from a different perspective, or what's the point of discussing anything at all?)

[Pulcinella]

That does surprise me. I can only locate 18 sections. The structure is basically AABB, repeated 4 times with evermore instrumentation, plus two coda portions.

Oops!
Should have gone to Specsavers.

It starts at track 12 not 10.
Sorry for the fake news!
Still interesting that it gets indexed like that, though.

Original post corrected.

[Master Jacques]

Oops!
Should have gone to Specsavers.

It starts at track 12 not 10.
Sorry for the fake news!
Still interesting that it gets indexed like that, though.

Original post corrected.

What's your take on the Boulez performance? I enjoy it a lot, for the forensic detail and perfect ensemble.

[cloughie]

I think you miss my point, which was to suggest ways in which people who don't like Bolero might get to see why those of us who do, like it (i.e. by focusing on something other than the tune). Or can nobody ever change their mind, or feel the light dawning about a piece they've loathed for years?

(I'd take the same line with somebody who failed to get the point of Marmite, by the way! It's no good saying chacun a son gout without at least giving people a chance to see things from a different perspective, or what's the point of discussing anything at all?)

No, I’ve tried them all - because I love all the rest of Ravel’s music I have many recordings of Bolero which are coupled with pieces I like, including Monteux, whose Daphnis and Mother Goose are among the best, Boulez both DG and Sony, Maazel, Mehta, Martinon, Karajan, Cluytens, Munch, Solti, YP Tortelier and many others. Also the Lortie/Mercier two piano version - still I do not like the piece - I guess I never will!

[Stanfordian]

No, I’ve tried them all - because I love all the rest of Ravel’s music I have many recordings of Bolero which are coupled with pieces I like, including Monteux, whose Daphnis and Mother Goose are among the best, Boulez both DG and Sony, Maazel, Mehta, Martinon, Karajan, Cluytens, Munch, Solti, YP Tortelier and many others. Also the Lortie/Mercier two piano version - still I do not like the piece - I guess I never will!

I think it's work that benefits from watching a performance.

[Pulcinella]

What's your take on the Boulez performance? I enjoy it a lot, for the forensic detail and perfect ensemble.

I do too, which is why I chose it. Might listen to his BPO (DG) account later, along with some others I have (off the top of my head Abbado, Ansermet, Dutoit, Haitink, Martinon).
I thought that I had the Monteux, but it's not one of the 'fillers' to his classic Daphnis and Chloe.

[cloughie]

I think it's work that benefits from watching a performance.

Seen it - yes its execution is very slick and usually theatrical - still don’t like it!

[Pulcinella]

In light of Alpie's comment about the structure of the piece, I found the Wiki article to be very useful and thorough:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boléro

[ardcarp]

This isn't on the wrong thread. It's about St Dennis Youth Brass Band in Cornwall. A few years ago I heard them play, outdoors and from memory Ravel's Bolero. If you think this is not worthy to mention, I'd add that they had just won the national (yes the National) Youth Brass Band Competition....and they were young 'professionals'. Talking to the bandmaster afterwards, I learned that they received no funding whatsoever from the County or the State, and funded themselves entirely by sponsorship and rattling collecting boxes at the end of their concerts. I gather this lack of funding has caused problems, but that there is now an 'Academy' [shades of CBSO] which should put things on a firmer footing. Cornwall, as well as the North, has a fine brass band tradition, and it's great that there are young people around who are still dedicated to achieving the highest standards in the remoter and less affluent parts of the UK.

You can see from this:

https://brassbandresults.co.uk/bands/st-dennis-youth/

...that they're still doing pretty well, and doing loads of playing; and all this competitive stuff is in addition to loads of local gigs.

NB the 11th and 12th positions are when they are competing in the adult competitions.

[cloughie]

This isn't on the wrong thread. It's about St Dennis Youth Brass Band in Cornwall. A few years ago I heard them play, outdoors and from memory Ravel's Bolero. If you think this is not worthy to mention, I'd add that they had just won the national (yes the National) Youth Brass Band Competition....and they were young 'professionals'. Talking to the bandmaster afterwards, I learned that they received no funding whatsoever from the County or the State, and funded themselves entirely by sponsorship and rattling collecting boxes at the end of their concerts. I gather this lack of funding has caused problems, but that there is now an 'Academy' [shades of CBSO] which should put things on a firmer footing. Cornwall, as well as the North, has a fine brass band tradition, and it's great that there are young people around who are still dedicated to achieving the highest standards in the remoter and less affluent parts of the UK.

You can see from this:

https://brassbandresults.co.uk/bands/st-dennis-youth/

...that they're still doing pretty well, and doing loads of playing; and all this competitive stuff is in addition to loads of local gigs.

NB the 11th and 12th positions are when they are competing in the adult competitions.

I can strongly support this line on Cornish bands - Camborne Youth Band had also fared very well over the last few years.

[Master Jacques]

I think it's work that benefits from watching a performance.

Indeed so. As a young boy I remember watching Lawrence Leonard (at that time Barbirolli's assistant conductor) doing it with the Hallé, and pulling a similar trick to George Weldon's, so nicely described by Alpensinfonie earlier in the thread. Great stuff.

Following the piece with a score also enhances admiration for Ravel's extraordinary legerdemain.

Not on this forum of course, where the negative reactions are of course honest - but I sometimes think some of the comments I've heard down the years about Bolero come from snobbery: "It's so popular, that it can't be any good". It wouldn't be the only work to suffer that fate, for sure.

Yes most of the conductors Cloughie cites have brought something special to it: I hope highlighting like this, might encourage us to sit down and listen to it as more than "just" the filler on Ravel discs - to my mind, that sells the piece short (rather like playing a late Haydn symphony at the start of a concert).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The Montreal/Dutoit recording is outstanding, with a very wide dynamic range. I also have a Decca Phase 4 version which has compressed dynamics, presumably aimed at sounding impressive on a Dansette player.

[groovydavidii]

Re. ‘marmite’ metaphor, some years ago during a Radio 3 concert interval was slotted-in George Steiner’s lecture “Politics & Music,” he was exceptionally disparaging towards ‘Bolero’ and ‘Carmina Burana–I listen to it, hasten to add.

[Master Jacques]

Re. ‘marmite’ metaphor, some years ago during a Radio 3 concert interval was slotted-in George Steiner’s lecture “Politics & Music,” he was exceptionally disparaging towards ‘Bolero’ and ‘Carmina Burana–I listen to it, hasten to add.

Strangely enough Carmina Burana was the very piece I had in mind when talking about works which, like Bolero suffer from snobbery. I loved George Steiner's talks, which were as stimulating as they were entertaining, and I still cherish several of his books: but musically he had a tin ear and followed received opinion rather than understanding what was going on with organised sound.

I suppose that Marmite suffers from snobbish reactions too, at some level. Whether or not people like it, they can't knock it, as it sets a record for keeping its place in the market, without a name or formula change - and with minimal packaging redesign - since 1902!

[Master Jacques]

The Montreal/Dutoit recording is outstanding, with a very wide dynamic range. I also have a Decca Phase 4 version which has compressed dynamics, presumably aimed at sounding impressive on a Dansette player.

Ah, yes ... Stanley Black if I remember rightly, with Borodin's Polovtsian Dances. Decca Phase 4 was quite something else! My parents only owned about five "classical" records, of which one was Hugo Rignold's Pye Golden Guinea stereo LP, with The Sorcerer's Apprentice on one side and Bolero on the other - which nowadays would be impossibly short measure, even at bargain basement prices. I loved that disc, but wonder what I'd think of it now?