Brahms Piano Concerto No.1 in D minor...Rare HIPPS Triumphant...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    Brahms Piano Concerto No.1 in D minor...Rare HIPPS Triumphant...

    In the light of the recent unrecorded Schiff/OAE performances, it seems apt to highlight this one....
    But please open the discussion freely about HIPPs-Brahms recordings generally, or the D Minor Concerto itself (modern, CO or SO accompanied...)...

    Brahms
    Piano Concerto No.1 in D Minor. Hardy Rittner/L'arte del Mondo/Werner Ehrhardt MDG SACD/CD. rec. live 2011.


    Genuinely radical sound in this one, the historical instruments tilting the balance from strings to winds, creating very distinct voices, timbres and colours - reedy, woody, many-voiced yet pleasingy mellow too. Perhaps even more strikingly HIPPs-radical than the OAE/O.18thC, if a little less polished.
    The Erard piano is always much more audible than usual, but it is definitely a piano; but sounding lighter, more articulate than the modern grand with less resonance or sustain; the colours more varied. Easier to “speak” on it, harder to sing, perhaps. Yet this doesn’t completely preclude some flowing lines in an exceptionally eloquent adagio.

    In the 1st movement I occasionally felt the dramatic flow hung fire; I would have liked more follow-through over some passages; but the big moments are splendid, with both the drama and the discord of the recap having terrific impact, making this passage the true focal point of the movement. A slight intonational rawness sometimes made me wonder if the players were close to their technical limits, but this only added to the essential sense of struggle and conflict in the music, a vividly present, in-the-moment feel to this live performance.
    One or two slightly imperfect chords in winds/brass here and there, some not fully sung through; slight indistinctness when the horns play very softly; few and far..all part of the live pressures of course.
    But mostly I revelled in the colours clarity and rhythmic articulation of it all. The brasses come through brilliantly at climaxes, and are again very distinctively of the period type. The finale gathers itself impressively, with exciting bite, speed and articulation, the lighter more agile string band very telling here, but the sforzandos still punch really hard, physically exciting.

    As with many of the best period-instrument recordings there is that sense of the emotions and drama arising directly from the music itself, from the very sound of the instruments, rather than any subjective interpretational imposition. The “reading” is very direct, quite (though never excessively) quick, un-mannered.

    MDG’s recording is typically spacious, detailed, dynamic and with a vivid sense of the acoustic. Uncompromising audiophile sonic excellence.
    (Second time through, and the positives are only accentuated;
    I’m hearing more and more
    of things I never heard before;
    my carping reservations seem
    - exactly that.)

    The coda of the 1st movement has just stormed through, crashed home once again; extraordinary. Drama all there but in its very sound, every strand timbrally clear.
    Rare and precious. If only more Brahms recordings sounded like this….
    (lovely Böcklin cover art too).

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 23-03-19, 15:40.
  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18034

    #2
    Interesting, and I'll probably hit the buy button in a few days.

    However amazon have screwed up this page totally. The review (3 stars) is for Katchen's 1951 recording, while the CD option which is cheaper, turns out to be yet another completely different recording, by Pollini and Abbado. Makes one wonder what product would actually be delivered.

    Comment

    • pastoralguy
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 7799

      #3
      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
      Interesting, and I'll probably hit the buy button in a few days.

      However amazon have screwed up this page totally. The review (3 stars) is for Katchen's 1951 recording, while the CD option which is cheaper, turns out to be yet another completely different recording, by Pollini and Abbado. Makes one wonder what product would actually be delivered.
      It's amazing how often one reads reviews on Amazon that bear absolutely no resemblance to the disc that's being advertised. I can only surmise that 'classical' music is such a low priority that it's not worth employing someone to sort this out. (Imagine if the reviews for a Kylie album 'leaked' into the opinions for a Jennifer Lopez enterprise!! I'm sure the record companies would have something to say about that.)

      My first recording of Brahms First Piano Concerto was by a pianist called Roger Woodward with the New Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Kurt Masur. As far as I know, it was never released on cd. It was on the RCA label.

      Comment

      • Bryn
        Banned
        • Mar 2007
        • 24688

        #4
        Originally posted by pastoralguy View Post
        It's amazing how often one reads reviews on Amazon that bear absolutely no resemblance to the disc that's being advertised. I can only surmise that 'classical' music is such a low priority that it's not worth employing someone to sort this out. (Imagine if the reviews for a Kylie album 'leaked' into the opinions for a Jennifer Lopez enterprise!! I'm sure the record companies would have something to say about that.)

        My first recording of Brahms First Piano Concerto was by a pianist called Roger Woodward with the New Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Kurt Masur. As far as I know, it was never released on cd. It was on the RCA label.

        Possibly this one? No indication of which orchestra or who the conductor was but:



        The other 2 movements are on Youtube, too, but the third may take a little bit more of a search.
        Last edited by Bryn; 23-03-19, 21:59. Reason: Typo

        Comment

        • Bryn
          Banned
          • Mar 2007
          • 24688

          #5
          Since MDG do occasionally issue boxed sets, perhaps they will offer one of Rittner's survey of the piano music, both with and without orchestra. However, I note that their boxed sets do not seem to work out much cheaper than buying the separate discs.

          Comment

          • jayne lee wilson
            Banned
            • Jul 2011
            • 10711

            #6
            Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
            Interesting, and I'll probably hit the buy button in a few days.

            However amazon have screwed up this page totally. The review (3 stars) is for Katchen's 1951 recording, while the CD option which is cheaper, turns out to be yet another completely different recording, by Pollini and Abbado. Makes one wonder what product would actually be delivered.
            If it helps, I ordered it from this very page (13/03/19) having noticed the misplaced reviews... the MDG arrived quickly......hadn't noticed the wrong CD or LP options before, as there is as usual only the SACD Hybrid available from MDG.

            Not that I find many Amazon reviews much use anyway, but that's another story...

            Qobuz offer the download but as per usual with MDG there's no streaming...
            Listen to unlimited or download Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 1, Op. 15 by Hardy Rittner in Hi-Res quality on Qobuz. Subscription from £10.83/month.
            Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 23-03-19, 20:11.

            Comment

            • pastoralguy
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 7799

              #7
              Originally posted by Bryn View Post
              Possibly this one? No indidation of which orchestra or who the conductor was but:



              The other 2 movements are on Youtube, too, but the third may take a little bit more of a search.
              Many thanks, Bryn. I MIGHT buy the Lp and have it transcribed to cd. I listened to that disc a Lot circa 1980!

              Comment

              • richardfinegold
                Full Member
                • Sep 2012
                • 7735

                #8
                Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                In the light of the recent unrecorded Schiff/OAE performances, it seems apt to highlight this one....
                But please open the discussion freely about HIPPs-Brahms recordings generally, or the D Minor Concerto itself (modern, CO or SO accompanied...)...

                Brahms
                Piano Concerto No.1 in D Minor. Hardy Rittner/L'arte del Mondo/Werner Ehrhardt MDG SACD/CD. rec. live 2011.


                Genuinely radical sound in this one, the historical instruments tilting the balance from strings to winds, creating very distinct voices, timbres and colours - reedy, woody, many-voiced yet pleasingy mellow too. Perhaps even more strikingly HIPPs-radical than the OAE/O.18thC, if a little less polished.
                The Erard piano is always much more audible than usual, but it is definitely a piano; but sounding lighter, more articulate than the modern grand with less resonance or sustain; the colours more varied. Easier to “speak” on it, harder to sing, perhaps. Yet this doesn’t completely preclude some flowing lines in an exceptionally eloquent adagio.

                In the 1st movement I occasionally felt the dramatic flow hung fire; I would have liked more follow-through over some passages; but the big moments are splendid, with both the drama and the discord of the recap having terrific impact, making this passage the true focal point of the movement. A slight intonational rawness sometimes made me wonder if the players were close to their technical limits, but this only added to the essential sense of struggle and conflict in the music, a vividly present, in-the-moment feel to this live performance.
                One or two slightly imperfect chords in winds/brass here and there, some not fully sung through; slight indistinctness when the horns play very softly; few and far..all part of the live pressures of course.
                But mostly I revelled in the colours clarity and rhythmic articulation of it all. The brasses come through brilliantly at climaxes, and are again very distinctively of the period type. The finale gathers itself impressively, with exciting bite, speed and articulation, the lighter more agile string band very telling here, but the sforzandos still punch really hard, physically exciting.

                As with many of the best period-instrument recordings there is that sense of the emotions and drama arising directly from the music itself, from the very sound of the instruments, rather than any subjective interpretational imposition. The “reading” is very direct, quite (though never excessively) quick, un-mannered.

                MDG’s recording is typically spacious, detailed, dynamic and with a vivid sense of the acoustic. Uncompromising audiophile sonic excellence.
                (Second time through, and the positives are only accentuated;
                I’m hearing more and more
                of things I never heard before;
                my carping reservations seem
                - exactly that.)

                The coda of the 1st movement has just stormed through, crashed home once again; extraordinary. Drama all there but in its very sound, every strand timbrally clear.
                Rare and precious. If only more Brahms recordings sounded like this….
                (lovely Böcklin cover art too).

                https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
                Jlw my wife and I just returned home after an agonizing 3 hours spent with 2 different car salesmen. Your sales skills are so much more refined! I ordered the SACD. I have been annoyed at the tendency, in concert and in recordings, to turn this piece into an enervating, lugubrious slog that always drives me back to 50 year old recordings to cleanse my palate. Your description sounded lovely, and I really enjoy the house MD&G sound.

                Comment

                • Pianorak
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 3128

                  #9
                  Originally posted by pastoralguy View Post
                  a pianist called Roger Woodward
                  I would highly recommend Roger Woodward's recording of late Scriabin piano music. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scriabin-Pi...dward+Scriabin
                  My life, each morning when I dress, is four and twenty hours less. (J Richardson)

                  Comment

                  • Bryn
                    Banned
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 24688

                    #10
                    What do we know of the Erard used for this recorded performance? Is it, for instance, parallel-strung or overstrung? How clearly differentiated are the registered? Schiff used the same parallel-strung c.1860 Julius Blüthner instrument for both the D minor and B flat major works. Much as I enjoyed the performances, I do wonder whether the B flat major might not have been composed with the newer-fangled overstrung's characteristics in mind. I just wonder. I do not actually know what instruments Brahms had under his hands at the time.

                    Comment

                    • cloughie
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 22180

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                      Interesting, and I'll probably hit the buy button in a few days.

                      However amazon have screwed up this page totally. The review (3 stars) is for Katchen's 1951 recording, while the CD option which is cheaper, turns out to be yet another completely different recording, by Pollini and Abbado. Makes one wonder what product would actually be delivered.
                      1959!...and a fine recording and performance it is too.

                      Comment

                      • cloughie
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 22180

                        #12
                        Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                        In the light of the recent unrecorded Schiff/OAE performances, it seems apt to highlight this one....
                        But please open the discussion freely about Hipps-Brahms recordings generally, or the D Minor Concerto itself (modern, CO or SO accompanied...)...

                        Brahms
                        Piano Concerto No.1 in D Minor. Hardy Rittner/L'arte del Mondo/Werner Ehrhardt MDG SACD/CD. rec. live 2011.


                        Genuinely radical sound in this one, the historical instruments tilting the balance from strings to winds, creating very distinct voices, timbres and colours - reedy, woody, many-voiced yet pleasingy mellow too. Perhaps even more strikingly HIPPs-radical than the OAE/O.18thC, if a little less polished.
                        The Erard piano is always much more audible than usual, but it is definitely a piano; but sounding lighter, more articulate than the modern grand with less resonance or sustain; the colours more varied. Easier to “speak” on it, harder to sing, perhaps. Yet this doesn’t completely preclude some flowing lines in an exceptionally eloquent adagio.

                        In the 1st movement I occasionally felt the dramatic flow hung fire; I would have liked more follow-through over some passages; but the big moments are splendid, with both the drama and the discord of the recap having terrific impact, making this passage the true focal point of the movement. A slight intonational rawness sometimes made me wonder if the players were close to their technical limits, but this only added to the essential sense of struggle and conflict in the music, a vividly present, in-the-moment feel to this live performance.
                        One or two slightly imperfect chords in winds/brass here and there, some not fully sung through; slight indistinctness when the horns play very softly; few and far..all part of the live pressures of course.
                        But mostly I revelled in the colours clarity and rhythmic articulation of it all. The brasses come through brilliantly at climaxes, and are again very distinctively of the period type. The finale gathers itself impressively, with exciting bite, speed and articulation, the lighter more agile string band very telling here, but the sforzandos still punch really hard, physically exciting.

                        As with many of the best period-instrument recordings there is that sense of the emotions and drama arising directly from the music itself, from the very sound of the instruments, rather than any subjective interpretational imposition. The “reading” is very direct, quite (though never excessively) quick, un-mannered.

                        MDG’s recording is typically spacious, detailed, dynamic and with a vivid sense of the acoustic. Uncompromising audiophile sonic excellence.
                        (Second time through, and the positives are only accentuated;
                        I’m hearing more and more
                        of things I never heard before;
                        my carping reservations seem
                        - exactly that.)

                        The coda of the 1st movement has just stormed through, crashed home once again; extraordinary. Drama all there but in its very sound, every strand timbrally clear.
                        Rare and precious. If only more Brahms recordings sounded like this….
                        (lovely Böcklin cover art too).

                        https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
                        Backwoodsman non-hippites may not comment but just read and learn!

                        Comment

                        • jayne lee wilson
                          Banned
                          • Jul 2011
                          • 10711

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                          What do we know of the Erard used for this recorded performance? Is it, for instance, parallel-strung or overstrung? How clearly differentiated are the registered? Schiff used the same parallel-strung c.1860 Julius Blüthner instrument for both the D minor and B flat major works. Much as I enjoyed the performances, I do wonder whether the B flat major might not have been composed with the newer-fangled overstrung's characteristics in mind. I just wonder. I do not actually know what instruments Brahms had under his hands at the time.
                          Hardy Rittner contributes a whole page of the booklet note to the Erard piano itself, his research into Brahms' and other virtuosos' preferences for the Erard at the time, and his own rehearsals comparing the Erard with "an excellent Viennese fortepiano with an extraordinarily beautiful and powerful tone." Thus he arrived at his choice, the Erard "clearly better able to assert itself over the orchestra" and how well matched it was to the other instruments. He offers this description of the instrument:

                          "To be precise, the piano I have used is an Erard concert grand (Model 248) made in Paris in 1854.
                          It is distinctive in that all the parts crucial to producing tone - strings, soundboard, hammers and dampers - are in their original state. The instrument was kindly made available by Piano Salon Christophori".

                          He also reports that Brahms cancelled the planned 1858 premiere of the work in Hamburg, because what Brahms described as "the only usable grand piano here" an Erard, could not be made available. Later performances show that he did consider other pianos suitable as well, however.

                          I can only reiterate how clearly and beautifully audible the piano is against and with the orchestra, without ever feeling textually jarring.

                          Comment

                          • Bryn
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 24688

                            #14
                            Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                            Hardy Rittner contributes a whole page of the booklet note to the Erard piano itself, his research into Brahms' and other virtuosos' preferences for the Erard at the time, and his own rehearsals comparing the Erard with "an excellent Viennese fortepiano with an extraordinarily beautiful and powerful tone." Thus he arrived at his choice, the Erard "clearly better able to assert itself over the orchestra" and how well matched it was to the other instruments. He offers this description of the instrument:

                            "To be precise, the piano I have used is an Erard concert grand (Model 248) made in Paris in 1854.
                            It is distinctive in that all the parts crucial to producing tone - strings, soundboard, hammers and dampers - are in their original state. The instrument was kindly made available by Piano Salon Christophori".

                            He also reports that Brahms cancelled the planned 1858 premiere of the work in Hamburg, because what Brahms described as "the only usable grand piano here" an Erard, could not be made available. Later performances show that he did consider other pianos suitable as well, however.

                            I can only reiterate how clearly and beautifully audible the piano is against and with the orchestra, without ever feeling textually jarring.
                            Thanks for that, jayne, I now find that Erard were still making straight (parallel) strung grands in 1875, so Schiff's choice of a similarly strung Blüthner for both concertos was entirely apposite.

                            Comment

                            • Dave2002
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 18034

                              #15
                              Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                              1959!...and a fine recording and performance it is too.
                              The amazon reviewer claims 1951 for the Katchen recording.

                              There is an unfortunate consistency about the amazon reviews for Brahms 2nd piano concerto - and other pieces. Scanning the reviews one very often finds that the reviews are not of the highlighted item. I looked for Katchen + Brahms 2, and found the reviews clearly mentioning performances by Gutierrez .... etc. etc.

                              Amazon reviews can be helpful, but sometimes they are just a mess - perhaps too often. It's not only CDs which are affected by a complete mishmash of reviews.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X