Our Summer BAL 14: Bach's Suites for Solo Cello (Merged threads)

[verismissimo]

I've been listening to these a good deal recently, both live and recorded. What amazing works they are.

Fournier and Starker I've had for years. And more recently I acquired an inexpensive set by Victor Yoran, who seems to me to be in the Rostropovich mould.

I'd like to own a more HIP set, but which?

[LeMartinPecheur]

verismissimo: I'd be interested in your reactions to Starker (assuming this is the recording originally on Saga LPs). I've recently bought up 2 of the 3 s/h and have to confess to serious disappointment. Great technical excellence and fluency with the notes no doubt, but to my ears (and a friend's) they just aren't connected meaningfully at all. 'Motoric' or even 'clockwork' might be suitable tags.

Can't help you on HIP performances. I learnt the works from the first Tortelier HMV LP set and have since bought the Philips Gendron set on CD for my wife, but she insists on keeping it in her office My next purchase might well be the Fournier after recent purchase of his Dvorak concerto disc as recommended by the recent BaL () but I'd be interested in a HIP set too.

[Bryn]

For a HIPP recording, go for Badiarov, on a violoncello da spalla. For me it just has the edge on Kuijken's recording on the same type of instrument. Indeed that used by Kuijken was made by Badiarov.

[Don Petter]

verismissimo: I'd be interested in your reactions to Starker (assuming this is the recording originally on Saga LPs). I've recently bought up 2 of the 3 s/h and have to confess to serious disappointment. Great technical excellence and fluency with the notes no doubt, but to my ears (and a friend's) they just aren't connected meaningfully at all. 'Motoric' or even 'clockwork' might be suitable tags.

There were only ever two Saga LPs with just four of the six suites.

He did a complete earlier LP set for Columbia on 3 LPs, later re-issued in one of those big (5CD) cheap boxes from French EMI, and there was another set on Mercury (432 756-2 for the CDs). Not quite sure of the relative dates without delving into my reference works.

I must admit I was 'raised' on the Sagas and like all three traversals very much.

[Ariosto]

The Ralph Kirshbaum CD's are quite wonderful. Very warm sound, lovely musicianship. Not dried up like some. Well recorded too. (Virgin Classics 7243 5 61609 2) Two CD's.

[verismissimo]

verismissimo: I'd be interested in your reactions to Starker (assuming this is the recording originally on Saga LPs). I've recently bought up 2 of the 3 s/h and have to confess to serious disappointment. Great technical excellence and fluency with the notes no doubt, but to my ears (and a friend's) they just aren't connected meaningfully at all. 'Motoric' or even 'clockwork' might be suitable tags.

LMP, my suspicion is that there are two rather separate playing traditions here. One could regard them as trad/warm versus HIP/dry, where the former is big on vibrato and legato, and the latter the opposite.

And while Casals, Rostropovich and Du Pre epitomise the former, maybe (although not apparently HIP) Starker is more in the latter camp, along with someone like Anner Bylsmer at the more extreme end.

It's so easy to create an internal "ideal" in these works. Maybe Starker just doesn't conform to yours, LMP?

[Ariosto]

LMP, my suspicion is that there are two rather separate playing traditions here. One could regard them as trad/warm versus HIP/dry, where the former is big on vibrato and legato, and the latter the opposite.

And while Casals, Rostropovich and Du Pre epitomise the former, maybe (although not apparently HIP) Starker is more in the latter camp, along with someone like Anner Bylsmer at the more extreme end.

It's so easy to create an internal "ideal" in these works. Maybe Starker just doesn't conform to yours, LMP?

Although I have not heard the Starker Bach performances I would normally hesitate to put him in the HIP camp. (Or even close to). I think of him as a great Brahms player for instance. A cellist and musician I've always admired.

[Barbirollians]

Fournier is stupendous in the Cello Suites - much my favourite . Though I do enjoy listening to both my other sets . Tortelier's later recording and the first Bylsma.

[BBMmk2]

If I am correct in this, Janos Starkier's recording was the best of the crop once on a BaL?

[verismissimo]

Bach's Cello lighting few fires in this part of the forest?

[amateur51]

I love the Fournier recordings but I play the earlier of Pieter Wispelwey's two sets for a certain joie de vivre.

Friends rave about Anne Gastinel's recordings too but I haven't heard those yet. I recently attended a concert of two of the suites by Richard Tunnicliffe and I see that he has recorded them too - they have gone on my list

[Richard Tarleton]

Starker was my introduction to the suites - never having heard a note of them before, someone played me a record of Starker's no. 6 well over 40 years ago - the prelude is breathtaking. I now have his 1960s Mercury Living Presence set. I then heard Tortelier play the prelude to no 1 as an encore (after the Elgar), and bought his 1961 set, which I now have on CD. I used to play it (the prelude to no 1) on the guitar (it's in D on the guitar).

My HIPP choice is Jaap ter Linden on baroque cello with a 5-stringed cello for no 6, which I was introduced to in an Andrew Manze survey of the suites - marvellous playing. I don't care for Anner Baelsma's playing - his tempi (at least in the performances I've heard on CD and radio) seem to wander all over the place.

I admire the Fournier version but find them a bit too noble - I prefer a bit more attitude, which I get from Starker and Tortelier. That's a non-musical judgement but I respond more to their versions.

I hated Yo Yo Ma's attempt to set the suites to films, which seemed to me to miss the point of the suites entirely - a thoroughly misguided enterprise which prejudiced me against his playing permanently. I've only heard extracts from Rostropovich's (late) recorded versions and would like to get to know them better.

Casals' playing of the suites leaves me puzzled - it sounds wispy and lacking in tone to me.

[vinteuil]

Bach's Cello lighting few fires in this part of the forest?

... well, I've been quiet - but have found this thread useful.

I have Fournier, Casals, Tortelier, Cohen, Gaillard, Harnoncourt, Ma - but was looking for something fresher and HIPPer - so have ordered (thanks, Bryn!) Badiarov - it's en route tomewards, and am looking fwds to hearing what it is

[LeMartinPecheur]

LMP, my suspicion is that there are two rather separate playing traditions here. One could regard them as trad/warm versus HIP/dry, where the former is big on vibrato and legato, and the latter the opposite.

And while Casals, Rostropovich and Du Pre epitomise the former, maybe (although not apparently HIP) Starker is more in the latter camp, along with someone like Anner Bylsmer at the more extreme end.

It's so easy to create an internal "ideal" in these works. Maybe Starker just doesn't conform to yours, LMP?

verismissimo and others, thanks for your responses. I'm somehow relieved that the completist in me can never be tempted by a Starker Saga LP with the missing two suites! My disappointment was the greater as I have a number of treasured Starker performances on bargain LPs, including his landmark Kodaly solo sonata/ duo for violin and cello LP (also Saga), the Brahms sonatas, and his Martinu sonatas on CD.

In Bach I don't think it's any gap between HIP and more romantic style that's at issue - it's S's apparent wish to join up all the notes seamlessly, with minimal phrasing or inflection to my ears. I don't see this style as particularly linked to either performance school that verismissimo sets as opposites, and would hope I approach any recording or performance with the same expectation of pleasure from these marvellous works, whether romantic or HIP. But Starker just didn't deliver it for me at all.

I'd be interested to hear one of his other sets though (hope springs eternal...), and I don't willingly rubbish any performance of anything.

[Richard Tarleton]

Heard extract from Richard Tunnicliffe's set on CD Review yesterday - very complimentary review by Andrew, but I'm afraid I was chiefly aware of his heavy and laboured breathing (Tunnicliffe's). Not sure I'd want to listen to that very often. I'm noticing this on more recordings of solo or chamber music these days - was it ever thus, and are microphones just too sensitive, or performers too closely miked in some recordings?