Our Summer BAL 13: Brahms Symphony No 3

[amateur51]

... I agree. The point about clichés is that - by and large - they contain at least a germ of truth.

Umslopogaas - I completely understood what you meant.

I shared all the usual prejudices about Brahms - sludgy, brown, etc. I found my way in progressively - thro' the piano works, the chamber music.

The first time I "got" orchestral Brahms was thro' the marvellous performances of the symphonies with Roger Norrington and the London Classical Players on EMI. There, you could 'hear' the individual lines - especially the inner parts - and it wasn't all lost in a sprawl of approximate sound.

I now really enjoy most of Brahms...

Watching the Klemperer rehearsals as recommended by ferney in message # 40 it's clear that he was keen to clarify textures where he could.

He also abolished the formal black tie requirements for male players as being outmoded. Nice one, OK

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Sludgy and Germanic" is a cliche, but that doesnt mean it isnt true.

"Sludgy" to me means a lot of instruments playing at once, the effect being that individual strands are hard to pick out. Mahler generally is not sludgy, though he is capable of making plenty of noise.

Your "reservations" were shared by Britten who said similar things about Brahms (and was a Mahler enthusiast, too).

[umslopogaas]

Thanks fhg, its good to have someone of BB's authority behind me ... in a manner of speaking, I hasten to add, in the real world an interview with BB would have made me very uneasy unless I could keep my back to the wall at all times.

Sorry ... that was a sudden memory of a cartoon by Charles Adams, when the grown ups are off for an evening out and say to the baby-sitter something like, "there's milk in the fridge, wine under the stairs, keep a sharp ear open and your back to the wall at all times".

And since I have temporarily cornered the market in Brahms cliches, "too much beer and beard" is another. Perhaps you can hear that in the later orchestral works, but it ignores the fact that Brahms as a young man was anything but: from the photos I've seen (eg the Decca complete piano works vols. 3 and 4 LP covers, played by Katchen), he was a very handsome young man and as passionate as you could wish ... Clara).

And ... there is a terrible sense of regret in the late works that I've heard, eg the late piano pieces. No, this is a major composer, constrained by his time but also stimulated by it.

[jayne lee wilson]

But ums., and vinteuil, you can't have it both ways...

"A lot of instruments playing at once" may produce a thick, warm, curtain of sound which may be the composer's intention. But if you then say that RN's Brahms opened your ears to him, you would have to blame all those other performances rather than Brahms himself. Karajan's last performances of Brahms 1, in Tokyo and London in 1988, were overwhelming in the sound they produced - a great wave, rich and full, where any accusation of obscuring density is simply irrelevant to the intention, the sonic and emotional effect created. But utterly different from the lean, clarifying approach of Mackerras, Berglund, etc., which is indeed more about "hearing every strand".

The 20th Century seems to have been obsessed with sharpness and clarity in the orchestra, sometimes forgetting that it can be used to create an effect which may not entail "hearing everything". You'll recall Debussy wanting his orchestra to sound "as if backlit", or Furtwangler rising from his seat a few minutes into Toscanini's Beethoven 9, declaring "bloody timebeater" and walking out (a story which should be true, even if it's not). Beethoven - at least as WF saw it - was creating an atmosphere of tension and mystery, which hearing every note can dilute.

It's possible that Brahms has suffered from inadequate recording quality too. I recall my dismay on borrowing the Klemperer Brahms LPs in the 70s - what dense, muddy obscurity! Now, on EMI Grocs or Toshibas, the use of a large string band doesn't lead to muddiness, the contrapuntal lines are well-balanced and woodwind details are sharp and clear. It's a myth, too, to describe Klemperer as ponderous: at 39.09 for No.4, or 38.55 for No.2 (sans repeat) he certainly doesn't hang around.

As for cliches... would anyone now seriously describe Mahler's music as "neurotic"? And is there really a "grain of truth" in Tchaikovsky's "sentimentality"?

****


EDIT: "Keep your back to the wall"? You can't get away with that appalling piece of retro prejudice at Britten's expense by calling it a joke and apologising. I call on the right dis-honourable member for slop-buckets to withdraw his comment.

Just when I was enjoying myself... de la musique, etc...

[visualnickmos]

Thanks fhg, its good to have someone of BB's authority behind me ... in a manner of speaking, I hasten to add, in the real world an interview with BB would have made me very uneasy unless I could keep my back to the wall at all times.

Apart from the obvious homophobia that you carry, what on earth makes you think that you are so attractive that BB would want to lunge at you, just because he was gay?

[umslopogaas]

Withdraw it? Just when ... no stop it, you're stirring up stuff you cant control. I need to get some sleep. Without a trace of Brahms, I'm just enjoying some songs by Faure ((Souzay and Baldwin doing the honours).

[umslopogaas]

visualnickmos, I thought I had made my apparent homophobia sufficiently parodic to indicate that it was not real, but in case I didnt, I will state clearly, I'm not homosexual, I'm not homophobic, I dont care where people put their fleshy bits as long as they dont break the law and lets get back to Brahms. Phew, there's more sex in music than I ever imagined, if my interpretation of this little furore is correct. And a homophobic interpretation of Brahms symph. 3? Got to be a first. You read it first here.

[amateur51]

visualnickmos, I thought I had made my apparent homophobia sufficiently parodic to indicate that it was not real, but in case I didnt, I will state clearly, I'm not homosexual, I'm not homophobic, I dont care where people put their fleshy bits as long as they dont break the law and lets get back to Brahms. Phew, there's more sex in music than I ever imagined, if my interpretation of this little furore is correct. And a homophobic interpretation of Brahms symph. 3? Got to be a first. You read it first here.

I think Healey's Law of Holes applies

[jayne lee wilson]

I think Healey's Law of Holes applies

A perfect response...

[jayne lee wilson]

visualnickmos, I thought I had made my apparent homophobia sufficiently parodic to indicate that it was not real, but in case I didnt, I will state clearly, I'm not homosexual, I'm not homophobic, I dont care where people put their fleshy bits as long as they dont break the law and lets get back to Brahms. Phew, there's more sex in music than I ever imagined, if my interpretation of this little furore is correct. And a homophobic interpretation of Brahms symph. 3? Got to be a first. You read it first here.

...and if you wish to "get back to Brahms" (and cliches), you might wish to offer a (doubtless brilliant) riposte to (ego-trip alert!) my msg. no. 49...

Oh and, before you do, make sure you've got a great man behind you.

[verismissimo]

Without a trace of Brahms, I'm just enjoying some songs by Faure.

Fine, under-rated follower of, er, Brahms, that Faure, um.

[BBMmk2]

I have found I have also Rattle's cycle, Szell and JEG's to of Symphopny no.3

(I must buy the Abbado set!)

[visualnickmos]

[QUOTE=Brassbandmaestro;192324]I have found I have also Rattle's cycle, Szell and JEG's to of Symphopny no.3 QUOTE]

I agree - the Szell is a marvellous set. The Barbirolli/VPO and the Swallisch/LPO are worth a punt, too...

[cloughie]

Well, I was!
I have them still on cassette; I shall hunt them out and give them another listen.

And thanks for the Norrington clips!

Won't Bohm sound slumbrous cf Norrington?

There is a wealth of choice out there - I like Reiner, Boult, Kempe and Klemperer but then Karajan is fine too as is Stokowski on Everest.

[cloughie]

Monteux and the VPO, 1961


I wouldnt want to pick a best of the pack, but I do recall Monteux and the VPO as particularly confident.

Not aware of this recording - the only Monteux 3 I know of is BBCNSO on BBC Legends, he did No 2 with VPO and LSO, both very good!