Our Summer BAL No 76 Mozart Piano Concerto No 23 K488

[BBMmk2]

I've just listened to the Brautigam JLW linked to. Glorious! I defy anyone not to feel better about life after that. I loved especially Brautigam's playing of the 1st movement third theme, the one in the last part of the exposition (especially after the dark colours of the orchestral version); also his restrained but delightful ornamentation towards the end of the slow movement. Lots of great contribution by the woodwinds. (Perhaps the middle section of the finale, much imitated by later composers, woodwind theme in stages repeated and embellished by piano, just a tad perfunctory)

Thanks. I was thinking more non-HIPP.

[rauschwerk]

Thanks. I was thinking more non-HIPP.

Richard Goode with the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra is a version I have found consistently rewarding. Download only.

[Braunschlag]

No but I think the record companies did! They are not in it for the love of mankind believe me…

Certainly - it’s a product. I sold enough at Audiosonic, it was a business as much as any other. And are niche labels in it just for philanthropic reasons, don’t think so either.

[jayne lee wilson]

Richard Goode with the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra is a version I have found consistently rewarding. Download only.

There are some CDs left....prices various....not too outrageous...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=richard+goode+mozart&rh=n%3A229816&dc&qid=1628424456&rnid=1642204031&ref=sr_nr_n_1

Widely streamable of course. My favourite modern-instrument recordings, by far...

[jayne lee wilson]

Certainly - it’s a product. I sold enough at Audiosonic, it was a business as much as any other. And are niche labels in it just for philanthropic reasons, don’t think so either.

Just a tiny elephant in the record-label room here.....it might, might just, sometimes, be For the Love of Music! Didn't you love any of the records you sold at Audiosonic?

Ever read Robert Von Bahr about his beloved BIS? Colin Matthews on NMC?
Von Bahr still writes little notes in his latest download email alerts.... he's very honest and humorous too, about the things he doesn't like. Very endearing....

I wonder what the profit margins are for David Matthews' 8th and 9th Symphonies, on Signum and Nimbus respectively....

[Braunschlag]

Interestingly - Audiosonic was owned and run by two guys, Laurie Dann and Jim Ferguson. Laurie was the ‘ musical’ partner, Jim was an ex teacher. It provided a decent income for both and some pocket money for a few of us part-timers.
I once asked Laurie how many records/CDs he had in his collection and I was surprised when he said about 100. His rationale was that he didn’t need a library when he either knew them all or had a shop full he could listen to each day. Jim was pretty blasé about the whole thing, he simply liked doing the business side of it all and going home at 5.30 each day.
It was a surprise to me but I really did get the idea of the shop. ‘Product’ was the disc, regardless of its alleged artistic merits. I was there during the Norrington Beethoven releases and it was a really good time for the shop - I’m with Heldenleben here, it was a golden goose ripe for harvesting, came just as CD was taking off and what better to flog the new format than a new gimmick. And where are those LCP albums now? Remaindered with all the other authentic stuff in charity shops, forgotten and ignored.
Those esoteric labels are all well and good but I don’t buy into the owner blurb - Nimbus, Shura Gurmann lieder, need I say more?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Interestingly - Audiosonic was owned and run by two guys, Laurie Dann and Jim Ferguson. Laurie was the ‘ musical’ partner, Jim was an ex teacher. It provided a decent income for both and some pocket money for a few of us part-timers.
I once asked Laurie how many records/CDs he had in his collection and I was surprised when he said about 100. His rationale was that he didn’t need a library when he either knew them all or had a shop full he could listen to each day. Jim was pretty blasé about the whole thing, he simply liked doing the business side of it all and going home at 5.30 each day.
It was a surprise to me but I really did get the idea of the shop. ‘Product’ was the disc, regardless of its alleged artistic merits. I was there during the Norrington Beethoven releases and it was a really good time for the shop - I’m with Heldenleben here, it was a golden goose ripe for harvesting, came just as CD was taking off and what better to flog the new format than a new gimmick. And where are those LCP albums now? Remaindered with all the other authentic stuff in charity shops, forgotten and ignored.
Those esoteric labels are all well and good but the don’t buy into the owner blurb - Nimbus, Shura Gurmann lieder, need I say more?

CD’s were the ultimate poisoned chalice . Retailing at a multiple of vinyl once volume production started costs came down and profits shot up . That accelerated the venture into wider repertoire including as it was then “Authentic” performance . One or two realised that as CD’s lasted for ever ( remember all those stories about decaying CD’s ? I’ve perfect 40 year old ones ) it was a one shot bonanza. Then the presssure to expand into still wider repertoire and different styles of performance - great if you are an avid collector but the majority are quite happy with just a couple of discs of core repertory . Then along came iPods , downloads , illegal streaming and the wheels came off the wagon . Yes there are more public spirited companies recording non core repertory but the big orchestras have lost an important income stream - one that they will never get back and in my interest area Opera the great days are long over.

[jayne lee wilson]

Interestingly - Audiosonic was owned and run by two guys, Laurie Dann and Jim Ferguson. Laurie was the ‘ musical’ partner, Jim was an ex teacher. It provided a decent income for both and some pocket money for a few of us part-timers.
I once asked Laurie how many records/CDs he had in his collection and I was surprised when he said about 100. His rationale was that he didn’t need a library when he either knew them all or had a shop full he could listen to each day. Jim was pretty blasé about the whole thing, he simply liked doing the business side of it all and going home at 5.30 each day.
It was a surprise to me but I really did get the idea of the shop. ‘Product’ was the disc, regardless of its alleged artistic merits. I was there during the Norrington Beethoven releases and it was a really good time for the shop - I’m with Heldenleben here, it was a golden goose ripe for harvesting, came just as CD was taking off and what better to flog the new format than a new gimmick. And where are those LCP albums now? Remaindered with all the other authentic stuff in charity shops, forgotten and ignored.
Those esoteric labels are all well and good but I don’t buy into the owner blurb - Nimbus, Shura Gurmann lieder, need I say more?

The LCP/Norrington Beethoven Cycle is one of the best on Record, his SWR one even better. Among my most-played, as are his Schubert, Mozart and Brahms - the latter reissued on a stunning Japanese Erato audiophile release.
Most of his LCP classical recordings have been reissued, some more than once, by Virgin and others....the Beethoven Symphonies and Concertos were last reissued in 2011. All have received many glowing reviews, and continue to feature in surveys like the Gramophone Collection...
Of course they are now widely available to stream in lossless or hires. It is a rich legacy.

"Forgotten and ignored?" Not by this or many other devoted musiclovers...

So you're out of touch there. God knows what you mean by "all the other authentic stuff" a comment so sweeping vague and inaccurate that it can't be taken seriously.

Off to the Proms now....

[Braunschlag]

The LCP/Norrington Beethoven Cycle is one of the best on Record,

In your opinion. To me it’s dreadful, hastily dispatched and crudely performed. I’ve mentioned before that I have no interest at all in HIPP, so- called ‘authentic’ or anything else of that ilk. It’s a personal choice or even a complete indifference but there it is. Even Hans Keller (in ‘Criticism’) expresses a similar disregard for it.

When it was first released we were amazed at how many were sold at Audiosonic, and then equally surprised at how many were then returned/exchanged as second hand part exchanges. It reached the point where we began to only offer risible p/ex prices as the second hand stock grew out of economical control.

Not so out of touch then.

[Tony Halstead]

The LCP/Norrington Beethoven Cycle is one of the best on Record,

In your opinion. To me it’s dreadful, hastily dispatched and crudely performed. I’ve mentioned before that I have no interest at all in HIPP, so- called ‘authentic’ or anything else of that ilk. It’s a personal choice or even a complete indifference but there it is. Even Hans Keller (in ‘Criticism’) expresses a similar disregard for it.

When it was first released we were amazed at how many were sold at Audiosonic, and then equally surprised at how many were then returned/exchanged as second hand part exchanges. It reached the point where we began to only offer risible p/ex prices as the second hand stock grew out of economical control.

Not so out of touch then.

To quote Jayne (To whom thanks for providing exactly the appropriate words):

So you're out of touch there. God knows what you mean by "all the other authentic stuff" a comment so sweeping vague and inaccurate that it can't be taken seriously

[Braunschlag]

But authentic was such a respected term then. Hmmm

[jayne lee wilson]

The LCP/Norrington Beethoven Cycle is one of the best on Record,

In your opinion. To me it’s dreadful, hastily dispatched and crudely performed. I’ve mentioned before that I have no interest at all in HIPP, so- called ‘authentic’ or anything else of that ilk. It’s a personal choice or even a complete indifference but there it is. Even Hans Keller (in ‘Criticism’) expresses a similar disregard for it.

When it was first released we were amazed at how many were sold at Audiosonic, and then equally surprised at how many were then returned/exchanged as second hand part exchanges. It reached the point where we began to only offer risible p/ex prices as the second hand stock grew out of economical control.

Not so out of touch then.

Of course its not just in my opinion. No less than Richard Osborne had high praise for many of them as they appeared, the 6th especially (which he considered to be as special as Toscanini, in its own distinctive way). And he wasn't alone. Do you ever read any reviews? Oh don't tell me, you sweepingly dismiss all their opinions as well, and you probably gave Norrington very little careful attention beyond your initial reaction. (Having "no interest at all in HIPPS" is hardly a favourable mindset for critical listening, is it?)

I read "Criticism" several times - excellent book, but things do move on from 1987 and HIPPs has, as I often exhaustively illustrate become a cornucopia of multifarious creativity. We now hear those pioneers like Norrington in a different, even more positive light, as we do when we hear his SWR recordings...

I know the oft-quoted line about "period ears", but I always found it a very narrow view. I admired Keller hugely and learnt a lot from him, but he didn't get everything right.
Oh and, most if not all of the LCP set came out after "Criticism" had been written and published....

[Ein Heldenleben]

The LCP/Norrington Beethoven Cycle is one of the best on Record,

In your opinion. To me it’s dreadful, hastily dispatched and crudely performed. I’ve mentioned before that I have no interest at all in HIPP, so- called ‘authentic’ or anything else of that ilk. It’s a personal choice or even a complete indifference but there it is. Even Hans Keller (in ‘Criticism’) expresses a similar disregard for it.

When it was first released we were amazed at how many were sold at Audiosonic, and then equally surprised at how many were then returned/exchanged as second hand part exchanges. It reached the point where we began to only offer risible p/ex prices as the second hand stock grew out of economical control.

Not so out of touch then.

That Keller book is a great read but deliberately provocative. I’ve done at least three of his “bogus” professions . I reckon most of the people on this thread forum have done a few. Funnily enough record shop owner and musician (either inauthentic or authentic ) don’t make the list of the damned . Irritatingly it has no index so I can’t find the authentic reference .
I like the Norrington Beethoven though I can see why some people might be dissatisfied with it - it’s bit of a shock . I knew a few orchestral musicians who thought HIPP performances a bit of a fad “ bands for those who can’t make proper orchestras “ was one comment. Funnily enough that very same person ended up working for a very distinguished HIPP band. I got the impression that the attraction was a wider range of repertoire which seems counter-intuitive . But there is now HIPP Debussy isn’t there?

[Braunschlag]

Ah, Richard Osborne. I really did read the Gramophone reviews but they are by no means a reliable guide, even less so now.

I have no ‘period ears’ whatsoever, but then does anyone?

HIPP seems to my completely jaded ears to be a reincarnation of austere, dry, academic and antiseptic music, it’s not my thing and I’ll never be convinced.

[visualnickmos]

The LCP/Norrington Beethoven Cycle is one of the best on Record, his SWR one even better. Among my most-played, as are his Schubert, Mozart and Brahms - the latter reissued on a stunning Japanese Erato audiophile release.
Most of his LCP classical recordings have been reissued, some more than once, by Virgin and others....the Beethoven Symphonies and Concertos were last reissued in 2011. All have received many glowing reviews, and continue to feature in surveys like the Gramophone Collection...
Of course they are now widely available to stream in lossless or hires. It is a rich legacy.

"Forgotten and ignored?" Not by this or many other devoted musiclovers...

So you're out of touch there. God knows what you mean by "all the other authentic stuff" a comment so sweeping vague and inaccurate that it can't be taken seriously.

Off to the Proms now....

I still fail to see what a review can really tell one? Surely it's the reviewer's opinion, albeit - supposedly a learned one; but the only way for us listeners to go, is to listen to what attracts us, and let our ears do the rest. I have to say that I have one or two friends into HIIP / auhentc or whatever, who have played me variuos stuff, but my overall 'opinion' is that they sound thin, totally lacking in oomph!