Our Summer BAL No 76 Mozart Piano Concerto No 23 K488

[Richard Barrett]

in those hot nights at the Royal Albert Hall as the piano gets more and more out of tune with the woodwind I do find that a problem. There’s a bassoon entry in the Emperor which always has me wincing . I suppose often the player can’t even hear the pianist ?

To which I'm bound to say well the Emperor wasn't written with any thought of a performing space so huge that the principal bassoonist can't hear a piano soloist (and the audience can't really hear either clearly except on the radio!). HIP extends to the kind of rooms where the music was played, as much as anything else.

[french frank]

but I imagine that much of the time there would have been less system and more "that sounds more or less OK, let's get on with it".

It may be heresy to suggest this but I'm going to suggest it anyway - that the vast majority of those listening in Mozart's day, AND the vast majority listening now, don't find their listening pleasure diminished by intonation which is consistently a quarter tone off.

[Richard Barrett]

It may be heresy to suggest this but I'm going to suggest it anyway - that the vast majority of those listening in Mozart's day, AND the vast majority listening now, don't find their listening pleasure diminished by intonation which is consistently a quarter tone off.

Have you ever heard music that's played "consistently a quarter tone off"? I think you'd find it pretty weird.

[french frank]

Have you ever heard music that's played "consistently a quarter tone off"? I think you'd find it pretty weird.

Remove the word 'consistently' then.

[Joseph K]

Remove the word 'consistently' then.

Surely music played inconsistently a quarter tone off would sound even weirder?

[Bryn]

Even BIS and CPO, Soli doe Gloria, Musik Museum, NMC, Chandos or Alpha?..Naive and Passacaille, Aparte......Most of the intense creativity and adventurousness is found among such independents and smaller labels now... and for some decades back.......

Zukunftsmusik! I raise my glass.....

Indeed. Many, if not most or all these independents were established by enthusiasts for the music they sought to promote via recordings. They tend to very often be run on a shoestring.

[french frank]

Surely music played inconsistently a quarter tone off would sound even weirder?

The mention of a quartertone was a mistake. It was a response to Richard's contention:"I imagine that much of the time there would have been less system and more "that sounds more or less OK" ..."

[Ein Heldenleben]

It may be heresy to suggest this but I'm going to suggest it anyway - that the vast majority of those listening in Mozart's day, AND the vast majority listening now, don't find their listening pleasure diminished by intonation which is consistently a quarter tone off.

Don’t tell string quartets - the ones I’ve met talk of little else! Obviously no one sits with a tuning fork or oscilloscope monitoring these things but a consistent quarter tone difference between piano and orchestra would have me wincing . Likewise if a piano note goes out of tune either with the others or with itself I find myself (if I know the piece well enough ) dreading it’s reappearance. Part of the skill of a violin player is sometimes to play slightly flat or sharp to create an effect but consistently out of tune (or even inconsistently ) isn’t ignorable I think. Mind you it all depends what you mean by out of tune …

Oh just read #82 or should that be b82

[EnemyoftheStoat]

But you can hopefully tell the difference between a historical concert instrument and a honky-tonk. If not, . . .

Well, I don't think I'd have been allowed on stage some 100-plus times singing with professional choirs and/or orchestras if that was likely, do you? Or maybe I'm just bloody good at bluffing?

[Mandryka]

Don’t tell string quartets - the ones I’ve met talk of little else! Obviously no one sits with a tuning fork or oscilloscope monitoring these things but a consistent quarter tone difference between piano and orchestra would have me wincing . Likewise if a piano note goes out of tune either with the others or with itself I find myself (if I know the piece well enough ) dreading it’s reappearance. Part of the skill of a violin player is sometimes to play slightly flat or sharp to create an effect but consistently out of tune (or even inconsistently ) isn’t ignorable I think. Mind you it all depends what you mean by out of tune …

Oh just read #82 or should that be b82

Don’t the players in a string quartet adjust the notes they play by microtones to produce scrunchy chords, as a sort of embellishment?

[jayne lee wilson]

This is getting a bit “what did the record companies ever do for us “ isn’t it ? Yes but I think a lot of the indies stepped in when the majors had wrung the dishcloth dry. Turned out there was still a bit more water in it if you ran a tight kitchen . That is no million pound spend on candles and flowers if you understand the reference !

But never forget the POV of a mere music loving listener (if an insatiably curious one), such as myself...I owe those companies' and their initiatives so much....

.. So many examples, just one: I read Hans Keller's seminal essay "Music 1975" when it appeared in Ian Hamilton's New Review (which also published some of Ian McEwan's early stories, Peter Porter's wonderful poems...etc....). Enthralled and fascinated, I saw the footnote referring to "Nikos Skalkottas....a small late Beethoven"...
I couldn't find any recordings then..... but years later, BIS began their great survey in the late 90s.....only recently has there been an attempt to cover similar repertoire, by...Naxos....

Go figure etc.
(A bit more water? Candles & Flowers?....Sorry, WAY more to it...)

[Ein Heldenleben]

But never forget the POV of a mere music loving listener (if an insatiably curious one), such as myself...I owe those companies' and their initiatives so much....

.. So many examples, just one: I read Hans Keller's seminal essay "Music 1975" when it appeared in Ian Hamilton's New Review (which also published some of Ian McEwan's early stories, Peter Porter's wonderful poems...etc....). Enthralled and fascinated, I saw the footnote referring to "Nikos Skalkottas....a small late Beethoven"...
I couldn't find any recordings then..... but years later, BIS began their great survey in the late 90s.....only recently has there been an attempt to cover similar repertoire, by...Naxos....

Go figure etc.
(A bit more water? Candles & Flowers?....Sorry, WAY more to it...)

I would exempt Naxos from any milking the rep and walking away accusation . I gather some have expressed concern over their fee structure but ‘‘twas ever thus ….

[Richard Barrett]

I think the first time I heard an 18th century piano, probably in the early 1970s, was on the recording made in 1967 (and mentioned here before) of CPE Bach's concerto for harpsichord, piano and orchestra featuring most of the luminaries recording for "Das alte Werk" at that time. To me it always had a highly attractive sound (and it should be noted in passing that the aforementioned concerto couldn't be convincingly played on a "modern" piano on account of the enormous difference in volume between it and the harpsichord!) and back then I did my best to snap up anything and everything recorded on such instruments. My point here is that in the end I don't prefer to listen to Mozart concertos on such instruments because they occupy some historical moral high ground but because the sound and the way it combines with the accompanying ensemble is more to my taste; which is no doubt partly because these are the characteristics composed into the music when it was written, but in the end it comes down to how one finds one's way to a deeper relationship with such works. Whatever facilitates that process is the "right way". I think most people who prefer the HIP way of doing things would probably agree.

[BBMmk2]

Anybody recommend a recording, please?

[silvestrione]

Anybody recommend a recording, please?

I've just listened to the Brautigam JLW linked to. Glorious! I defy anyone not to feel better about life after that. I loved especially Brautigam's playing of the 1st movement third theme, the one in the last part of the exposition (especially after the dark colours of the orchestral version); also his restrained but delightful ornamentation towards the end of the slow movement. Lots of great contribution by the woodwinds. (Perhaps the middle section of the finale, much imitated by later composers, woodwind theme in stages repeated and embellished by piano, just a tad perfunctory)