Our Summer BAL No 76 Mozart Piano Concerto No 23 K488

[silvestrione]

There are no rights and wrongs about how music might be performed, of course. The entrenched attitude that I find problematic is the idea that because I like this music performed this way, that's surely the way the composer would have wanted it to be performed. HIP is not about what I prefer, or what the composer "would have" preferred, it's about using what we know about what the composer did as a starting point.

Why would anyone care? What a strange thing to ask. Why would anyone care about anything?

You are very very close to that in your post 13, which set this whole thing going, where you state your preference with a doctrinaire flourish! I suspected you of wanting to stir us up!

[french frank]

You are very very close to that in your post 13, which set this whole thing going, where you state your preference with a doctrinaire flourish! I suspected you of wanting to stir us up!

Rather than 'wanting to stir us up', perhaps 'set a discussion rolling? I don't think anything is implied other than his own preference - or at least I didn't take it that way.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Rather than 'wanting to stir us up', perhaps 'set a discussion rolling? I don't think anything is implied other than his own preference - or at least I didn't take it that way.

Call me cynical but I’ve always wondered whether one of the big drivers for what used to be called erroneously “authentic” performances or “original “ instruments was the desire of record companies to sell more CD’s . They’d realised that a lot of collectors had several say Bach or Mozart classics done , say , by the larger German orchestras and here was something different that could be marketed as different and in some vague sense superior .
You then had key influencers like Nick Kenyon and Simon Rattle likening traditional performances to layers of paint on an Old Master or in one interview I heard “grime” . Then a sort of snobbery set in . My Böhm Mozart or Karajan (1963) Beethoven recordings were slightly sneered at and like a lot of people I went out and bought Harnoncourt , Norrington et al. Even bought the Rifkind B minor mass which I found myself listening to much more than the trad versions I had.
Thing is I still like those older recordings and player for player the BPO and VPO knock spots off any of the much touted HIPP bands I’ve heard(though some of the older instruments are tougher to play) I probably listen to more HIPP stuff than anything else now but you won’t get me knocking the Viennese/ German tradition. My only line in the sound is the fortepiano - it just sounds too honky- tonk to me.

[silvestrione]

Rather than 'wanting to stir us up', perhaps 'set a discussion rolling? I don't think anything is implied other than his own preference - or at least I didn't take it that way.

OK, fair enough. I certainly gained a lot, particularly from Richard's later illuminating comments.

[french frank]

Call me cynical but I’ve always wondered whether one of the big drivers for what used to be called erroneously “authentic” performances or “original “ instruments was the desire of record companies to sell more CD’s .

Who knows? What I see is simply that as the music evolves, so does performance; so as the 19th c. brought in the big symphonies the orchestras expanded to 'do them justice'. And not just the orchestras but the individual instruments, especially the piano. Then the same forces became the norm and were used to perform the earlier works. That's what 'most of us' grew up with.

But it seems entirely acceptable to attempt - if anyone prefers - "pseudo-authentic" performance. Doesn't bother me if people call it that. If I have a 'rationale' for my preference, it's that in the first place I prefer earlier music and my interest wanes as the 19th c. progresses. I also have a preference for chamber music and solo instrumental works: consequently, I wouldn't give tuppence for some of the great works of the latter part of that century that many/most would think of as being at the absolute heart of 'classical music', the music that the modern instruments/orchestras were invented for.

I like the 'lighter' sound of the smaller ensembles and the fortepiano sounds 'finer' (both senses) to my ear. Beethoven gets far Sturmier and Drangier than I have the taste for. All very subjective, very personal. I shall probably hate the next Big Thing, should I still be around to hear it. Hier stehe ich ...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Indeed so. I can't understand why people, on both sides of the argument, are so intolerant of the other and so entrenched in their attitudes with each believing they are right and the other is wrong. There is plenty of room for both approaches and enough to keep everyone happy. I personally don't go for HIPP very much, a bit sometimes but not much, and I certainly wouldn't be in the business of shouting down anyone's choice either way. Is it naive to expect others to take a similar 'live and let live' approach?

At last! A balanced view.

It’s wonderful that we have so much choice in the variety of performances we can hear. The problem lies more in the assumption of superiority in one style. And that composers were necessary 100% content with the resources they had available.

[Bryn]

Call me cynical but I’ve always wondered whether one of the big drivers for what used to be called erroneously “authentic” performances or “original “ instruments was the desire of record companies to sell more CD’s . They’d realised that a lot of collectors had several say Bach or Mozart classics done , say , by the larger German orchestras and here was something different that could be marketed as different and in some vague sense superior .
You then had key influencers like Nick Kenyon and Simon Rattle likening traditional performances to layers of paint on an Old Master or in one interview I heard “grime” . Then a sort of snobbery set in . My Böhm Mozart or Karajan (1963) Beethoven recordings were slightly sneered at and like a lot of people I went out and bought Harnoncourt , Norrington et al. Even bought the Rifkind B minor mass which I found myself listening to much more than the trad versions I had.
Thing is I still like those older recordings and player for player the BPO and VPO knock spots off any of the much touted HIPP bands I’ve heard(though some of the older instruments are tougher to play) I probably listen to more HIPP stuff than anything else now but you won’t get me knocking the Viennese/ German tradition. My only line in the sound is the fortepiano - it just sounds too honky- tonk to me.

The 'HIPP' movement very considerably predates the invention of the CD. It was much more a case of the recording industry eventually jumping on board a rolling juggernaut. Sorry to read of your hearing problem re the difference in timbre between a honky-tonk piano and the wide variety of historical percussive keyboard instruments. For my part, I am very eagerly awaiting the release of John TIlbury's recording of Howard Skempton's Preludes and Fugues played on a clavichord.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Well, I must have a hearing problem too, as I do not find the timbre of a fortepiano preferable to whatever they're called nowadays.

[Richard Barrett]

I wasn't intending to stir anything up. From personal experience I just think there's much to be gained from questioning one's own assumptions in the light of discoveries made by performers and scholars in this kind of area.

Call me cynical but I’ve always wondered whether one of the big drivers for what used to be called erroneously “authentic” performances or “original “ instruments was the desire of record companies to sell more CD’s

That is a fact, to be sure. When I first became interested in this sort of thing there were very few recordings available, and those that there were tended to work around the edges of the repertoire much of the time, one exception being Harnoncourt, Leonhardt et al with their recordings of Bach's vocal and instrumental music; and then, at a certain point in the early history of CDs the amount of available recordings grew massively.

I think though that the idea that "player for player the BPO and VPO knock spots off any of the much touted HIPP bands" is (see above) something again that's open to question. I was put in mind of what Derek Bailey has to say on a related subject: "There is no generalised technique for playing any musical instrument. However one learns to play an instrument it is always for a specific task. (…) The standard European instrumental education thinks of itself as being an exception to this rule. It is of course a very good example of it. It equips a musician with the ability to perform the standard European repertoire and its derivatives, and perhaps more than any other discipline it limits its adherents’ ability to perform in other musical areas." (my emphasis) The players in those symphony orchestras do what they do very well of course, but it's only one thing that they do. Player in HIP ensembles have in most cases undergone specialist training, and have in many cases done original research, accruing a whole different set of skills and knowledge that players in conventional orchestras don't have.

[Bryn]

Well, I must have a hearing problem too, as I do not find the timbre of a fortepiano preferable to whatever they're called nowadays.

But you can hopefully tell the difference between a historical concert instrument and a honky-tonk. If not, . . .

[Ein Heldenleben]

The 'HIPP' movement very considerably predates the invention of the CD. It was much more a case of the recording industry eventually jumping on board a rolling juggernaut. Sorry to read of your hearing problem re the difference in timbre between a honky-tonk piano and the wide variety of historical percussive keyboard instruments. For my part, I am very eagerly awaiting the release of John TIlbury's recording of Howard Skempton's Preludes and Fugues played on a clavichord.

Thanks for the sympathy though I don’t have a hearing problem other than tinnitus in the left ear. I can say that with some degree of accuracy as I’ve had them tested . I also own a Blüthner grand and have access to a Yamaha U1 which I play regularly . I have a pretty good sense of pitch and am a pretty competent sight singer and would put my general aural musical skills at grade 8 plus level . I don’t have a problem with clavichords , harpsichords but I do have a problem with fortepianos. It’s something to do with the decay of the note possibly . It just doesn’t sound in tune. I wonder is it’s something to do with the tuning or is just in the nature of the strings used. Maybe they just have a problem holding pitch. Who knows?

[Richard Barrett]

The problem lies more in the assumption of superiority in one style. And that composers were necessary 100% content with the resources they had available.

I don't think anyone has said anything about "superiority" or about composers being "100% content" with the resources they had available, just that they actually did work with those resources and would probably write their music differently if they'd had stuff they were 100% content with. Being 100% content with one's resources, or not, isn't really something that enters into the minds of working composers, believe me. If someone commissions me to write a string quartet I'm not constantly thinking "if only I had three violins instead of two" or "if only the range of the cello extended another fifth downwards".

[Mandryka]

For my part, I am very eagerly awaiting the release of John TIlbury's recording of Howard Skempton's Preludes and Fugues played on a clavichord.

Is he doing it?

[Mandryka]

Thanks for the sympathy though I don’t have a hearing problem other than tinnitus in the left ear. I can say that with some degree of accuracy as I’ve had them tested . I also own a Blüthner grand and have access to a Yamaha U1 which I play regularly . I have a pretty good sense of pitch and am a pretty competent sight singer and would put my general aural musical skills at grade 8 plus level . I don’t have a problem with clavichords , harpsichords but I do have a problem with fortepianos. It’s something to do with the decay of the note possibly . It just doesn’t sound in tune. I wonder is it’s something to do with the tuning or is just in the nature of the strings used. Maybe they just have a problem holding pitch. Who knows?

Some pianists may not tune their fortepiano equally when playing core repertoire piano music -- there are loads of examples on youtube. I believe (but I'm not sure, it's a while since I looked into it) that tunings with wolf tones in different places were common in the 18th and 19th century, some historians argue that the idea that Mozart, Chopin, Beethoven etc should be played with a piano tuned equally is a late Victorian dogma.

[Mandryka]

I do have a problem with fortepianos. It’s something to do with the decay of the note possibly . It just doesn’t sound in tune. I wonder is it’s something to do with the tuning or is just in the nature of the strings used. Maybe they just have a problem holding pitch. Who knows?

There are lots of different types of fortepianos (as there are harpsichords and clavichords) and there different approached to restoration. The piano which John Kouhri uses for this bit of Beethoven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHnBcETiQMw&ab_channel=DonOsoske

is clearly a different beast from the one that Robert Hill uses for this WF Bach polonaise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlyWqnd5gO0&ab_channel=RobertHill

(Someone on the Kouhri comments "9.49 wow!" and it is indeed a good example of why it's interesting to experiment with these old instruments.