Our Summer BAL No 76 Mozart Piano Concerto No 23 K488

[LMcD]

It isn't split in the Philips Complete Mozart Edition.

Unfortunately, it was split when released as part of a Philips Duo. Who can afford a Complete Mozart Edition?

[Barbirollians]

I wouldn't know who to choose between Bilson, Brautigam, Sofronitsky (V) and Immerseel. Luckily I don't have to. (& nor do I ever have to hear this music played on an instrument Mozart couldn't have imagined existing!)

I would not underestimate Mozart’s imagination.

[Bryn]

I would not underestimate Mozart’s imagination.

Possibly but I have too great a respect for him as a composer and keyboard player to assume he was not composing for the instruments available to him and to Nannerl at the time of composition.

[pastoralguy]

I have a box that sits near our Hi-Fi that contains the eight discs I would take if/when I get the call to discuss my undistinguished life on Desert Island Discs! It’s been subject to a little tweaking over the years but the first disc I ever considered is Zoltan Kocsis with the Franz Liszt Chamber Orchestra under Janos Rolla playing both Mozart’s A Major piano concertos. The adagio of K.488 is unbelievably bleak with no ornamentation at all.

One of my favourite performances of anything. (In fact, if I could choose, it’s the last music I’d like to hear before I join the great orchestra in the sky!)

[pastoralguy]

I would not underestimate Mozart’s imagination.

We’re in the fortunate position that there are so many wonderful recordings that feature all manor of instruments.

[Richard Barrett]

I would not underestimate Mozart’s imagination.

Hmm. so you reckon Mozart could have thought to himself, "if only I could have a keyboard instrument whose dynamic range is wide enough to carry over an orchestra several times the size of any I've heard, which can play 20-odd notes I've never previously thought of writing, and whose iron frame is produced using processes that don't exist in this century"...? Doesn't sound too likely to me. Also: composers who imagine instruments that don't yet exist generally find some way of getting them made, if they're that keen (as in Wagner's tubas, Bach's oboe da caccia etc.).

[LMcD]

Hmm. so you reckon Mozart could have thought to himself, "if only I could have a keyboard instrument whose dynamic range is wide enough to carry over an orchestra several times the size of any I've heard, which can play 20-odd notes I've never previously thought of writing, and whose iron frame is produced using processes that don't exist in this century"...? Doesn't sound too likely to me. Also: composers who imagine instruments that don't yet exist generally find some way of getting them made, if they're that keen (as in Wagner's tubas, Bach's oboe da caccia etc.).

The notes are the same. aren't they?

[Bryn]

The notes are the same. aren't they?

The dots on the page, maybe, but the sounds associated with them and the playing techniques required to get what was expected out of them, etc., were rather different. As many pianists with experience of instruments from various periods and mechanisms from the 18th to 21st centuries have pointed out, tempi, dynamics, balance with other instruments, etc., are all very differently achievable depending on the stage of development of the instruments concerned. That's one reason I am so happy that, for instance, Ronald Brautigam has recorded the 5 Beethoven Piano Concertos both on instruments after those of Beethoven's time, and on a modern Steinway with a modern orchestral complement of suitable size.

[Richard Barrett]

The notes are the same. aren't they?

In the sense that a C on a flute is "the same note" as a C on a violin, yes, but music actually consists of sounds, not notes! Or, to put it another way, Mozart played on a "modern" piano is in fact an arrangement of the music for instruments different from those for which it was written. There's nothing inherently wrong with arrangements of course, unless one tries to represent them as "what the composer (would have) really wanted".

[LMcD]

In the sense that a C on a flute is "the same note" as a C on a violin, yes, but music actually consists of sounds, not notes! Or, to put it another way, Mozart played on a "modern" piano is in fact an arrangement of the music for instruments different from those for which it was written. There's nothing inherently wrong with arrangements of course, unless one tries to represent them as "what the composer (would have) really wanted".

Understood! I wonder whether he would have approved of the sounds produced by Brendel and Co.

[Bryn]

Understood! I wonder whether he would have approved of the sounds produced by Brendel and Co.

As a man of taste (Mozart, that is) I would hope so but that's quite a different matter than how he expected his work to sound. I do have a pretty strong feeling that he would have composed differently had he been writing for the instruments and playing capabilities we have today.

[Richard Barrett]

As a man of taste (Mozart, that is) I would hope so but that's quite a different matter than how he expected his work to sound. I do have a pretty strong feeling that he would have composed differently had he been writing for the instruments and playing capabilities we have today.

Exactly. Nobody is claiming that he wouldn't have "approved" of Brendel et al., just that those weren't the sounds he had in mind when composing. If you want any evidence that he wrote very specifically for the instruments at his disposal you need only look at his clarinet concerto and quintet, written for Anton Stadler's basset clarinet whose lower range extends further than the "modern" clarinet in A.

[Belgrove]

As a synesthete, music has an extra dimension for me that can be wondrous. But unusually, Mozart fails to provoke much of a response other than the sense of a uniform (but rather pretty) primrose yellow that can edge into a pale yellow-green. This is ultimately rather boring compared with the pyrotechnics other composer’s harmonies (for it is harmony rather than key) can provoke, so life is too short to indulge in Mozart when there is so much other music to enjoy and experience extrasensorily. Sadly, when Mozart is played on period instruments, the pretty colour curdles to the sense of a sickly/muddy yellow, reminiscent of pottage made from split-peas! This is unpleasant, and so I choose to avoid such renditions despite any claims to authenticity from HIP advocates.

[LMcD]

As a synesthete, music has an extra dimension for me that can be wondrous. But unusually, Mozart fails to provoke much of a response other than the sense of a uniform (but rather pretty) primrose yellow that can edge into a pale yellow-green. This is ultimately rather boring compared with the pyrotechnics other composer’s harmonies (for it is harmony rather than key) can provoke, so life is too short to indulge in Mozart when there is so much other music to enjoy and experience extrasensorily. Sadly, when Mozart is played on period instruments, the pretty colour curdles to the sense of a sickly/muddy yellow, reminiscent of pottage made from split-peas! This is unpleasant, and so I choose to avoid such renditions despite any claims to authenticity from HIP advocates.

Is there a word for somebody for whom the vast majority of Mozart's works are golden?

[visualnickmos]

As a synesthete, music has an extra dimension for me that can be wondrous. But unusually, Mozart fails to provoke much of a response other than the sense of a uniform (but rather pretty) primrose yellow that can edge into a pale yellow-green. This is ultimately rather boring compared with the pyrotechnics other composer’s harmonies (for it is harmony rather than key) can provoke, so life is too short to indulge in Mozart when there is so much other music to enjoy and experience extrasensorily. Sadly, when Mozart is played on period instruments, the pretty colour curdles to the sense of a sickly/muddy yellow, reminiscent of pottage made from split-peas! This is unpleasant, and so I choose to avoid such renditions despite any claims to authenticity from HIP advocates.

Authenticity? What does it mean, here? Surely an anomalous abstract concept..... this is where I have an issue with HIP; there were as many differing interpretations and performing practices and 'takes' in Mozart's day, as there are today. Hence my question; What is 'authentic?'