Our Summer BAL No 76 Mozart Piano Concerto No 23 K488

[french frank]

Well, I must have a hearing problem too, as I do not find the timbre of a fortepiano preferable to whatever they're called nowadays.

I think the questionable assertion would be that anyone has a 'hearing problem' if they personally prefer one sound to another. Or that one sound is 'superior' to another. The problem seems to occur when anyone becomes so enthusiastic about their own preference that others infer that they're saying that anyone else's taste is inferior, or that they must have a 'hearing problem'. "Are you saying I'm wrong?" No.

[Bryn]

Some pianists may not tune their fortepiano equally when playing core repertoire piano music -- there are loads of examples on youtube. I believe (but I'm not sure, it's a while since I looked into it) that tunings with wolf tones in different places were common in the 18th and 19th century, some historians argue that the idea that Mozart, Chopin, Beethoven etc should be played with a piano tuned equally is a late Victorian dogma.

Indeed, during much of the period in which early pianos had their heyday, tuning was still very variable, though perhaps, a little more settled than in Bach's day. The issue is by no means dead, either, witness LaMonte Young's The Well-Tuned Piano (as broadcast TtN on Radio 3 a while back).

[Richard Barrett]

My OH used not to like the sound of a Mozart-era piano but she has changed her mind, through familiarity more than anything else, I mean it hasn't been the subject of domestic squabbles about whose hearing is superior. For myself, I don't much like the sound of timpani, or of large choirs, or of Tchaikovsky's orchestral tuttis. Is this the result of a "hearing problem"? Maybe. I don't think such things are very well understood.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Some pianists may not tune their fortepiano equally when playing core repertoire piano music -- there are loads of examples on youtube. I believe (but I'm not sure, it's a while since I looked into it) that tunings with wolf tones in different places were common in the 18th and 19th century, some historians argue that the idea that Mozart, Chopin, Beethoven etc should be played with a piano tuned equally is a late Victorian dogma.

Just listened to a Robert Levin fortepiano demo where he plays a Mozart piano concerto excerpt . Not only are the scales not in tune (neither well tempered or equal but let’s not go there) but it sounds like some strings aren’t in tune with each other . That’s what I mean by honky tonk. Mind you precisely the same accusation can be made against some of the upper strings on the U1 in our house. In addition me the timbre of the fortepiano is just a bit too splatty - there’s too much of a percussive effect maybe producing more transients ?? But of course it could be said that because I’ve spent years playing conventional pianos my ears have been conditioned to have that mellower tone as a reference sound,

[jayne lee wilson]

Call me cynical but I’ve always wondered whether one of the big drivers for what used to be called erroneously “authentic” performances or “original “ instruments was the desire of record companies to sell more CD’s . They’d realised that a lot of collectors had several say Bach or Mozart classics done , say , by the larger German orchestras and here was something different that could be marketed as different and in some vague sense superior .
You then had key influencers like Nick Kenyon and Simon Rattle likening traditional performances to layers of paint on an Old Master or in one interview I heard “grime” . Then a sort of snobbery set in . My Böhm Mozart or Karajan (1963) Beethoven recordings were slightly sneered at and like a lot of people I went out and bought Harnoncourt , Norrington et al. Even bought the Rifkind B minor mass which I found myself listening to much more than the trad versions I had.
Thing is I still like those older recordings and player for player the BPO and VPO knock spots off any of the much touted HIPP bands I’ve heard(though some of the older instruments are tougher to play) I probably listen to more HIPP stuff than anything else now but you won’t get me knocking the Viennese/ German tradition. My only line in the sound is the fortepiano - it just sounds too honky- tonk to me.

I reprint this, slightly revised, from earlier, unashamed and well, shameless, just to remind listeners here of the perspective - the recent, creatively multifarious historical background...as Bryn implies, Harnoncourt, Bruggen etc were following their own paths, their own projects back to the 1950s.....Arnold Dolmetsch was even earlier in his explorations... I suggest that this remarkable pioneer was unlikely to be thinking of record sales...

From #41....
"But are the HIPPS/Modern positions so entrenched now, really? Were they ever?
Its some years since JEG, Harnoncourt, Bruggen, Norrington and so on began conducting modern symphony orchestras, often with startlingly and very exciting results - "informed" by their own, and others, intensive researches. Pinnock, Haïm, Antonini and others have conducted a (very) reduced-Berlin Phil in recent years in concerts of Mozart, Beethoven, and - yes, even Rameau (Emmanuelle Haïm with her own choice of excerpts - I loved it).
Rattle likewise with the OAE. There’s been much cross-fertilisation.

Despite wrong assumptions, magazines like Gramophone never had any remotely doctrinaire postion: just a wide spread of interests, tastes and thoughts among their writers on performance styles, as many a Collection survey shows.

In my Proms comments and elsewhere, I always try to be very specific about what a classical performance brings to the music, whatever the instrumental provenance; how other approaches might have gains and losses. After following the above conductors on record for so long, I couldn’t listen any other way.
In fact, those so-called HIPPs-specialists have encouraged a wonderful creative diversication, not a narrowing at all, renewing and enlivening the performance of classical works generally and certainly inspiring later artists."

(And would add as others already have, that "fortepianos" whether from 1790 or 1830, have a much wider range of design, brand name and character than most modern designs from Yamaha, Steinway etc., so shouldn't be dismissed stereotypically.
But vide the recent Chris Maene straight-strung design, as used by Barenboim etc; and the rich, long history of the Bosendorfer back to the 1820s (this began when as an apprentice, young Ignaz Bosendorfer took over the Brodmann piano workshop..... just think of all those Schubert Sonatas!) preferred by such as Schiff (who also uses early pianos in Schubert and Brahms) and Hough today, but of course not exclusively...)....

[Ein Heldenleben]

My OH used not to like the sound of a Mozart-era piano but she has changed her mind, through familiarity more than anything else, I mean it hasn't been the subject of domestic squabbles about whose hearing is superior. For myself, I don't much like the sound of timpani, or of large choirs, or of Tchaikovsky's orchestral tuttis. Is this the result of a "hearing problem"? Maybe. I don't think such things are very well understood.

Interesting - a musician friend of mine cannot stand the sound of piano and orchestra or large choir and orchestra. I suppose one reason is that they are so rarely in tune with one another. I’m in the tiny minority of jazz enthusiasts who like (short ) drum solos and bass solos…I once heard a very eminent jazz presenter say that , in his view , trading fours should be banned….just encourages drummers .

[Ein Heldenleben]

I reprint this from earlier, unashamed and well, shameless, just to remind listeners here of the perspective - the recent, creatively multifarious historical background...as Bryn implies, Harnoncourt, Bruggen etc were following their own paths, their own projects back to the 1950s.....Arnold Dolmetsch was even earlier in his explorations... I suggest that this remarkable pioneer was unlikely to be thinking of record sales...

"But are the HIPPS/Modern positions so entrenched now, really? Were they ever?
Its some years since JEG, Harnoncourt, Bruggen, Norrington and so on began conducting modern symphony orchestras, often with startlingly and very exciting results - "informed" by their own, and others, intensive researches. Pinnock, Haïm, Antonini and others have conducted a (very) reduced-Berlin Phil in recent years in concerts of Mozart, Beethoven, and - yes, even Rameau (Emmanuelle Haïm with her own choice of excerpts - I loved it).
Rattle likewise with the OAE. There’s been much cross-fertilisation.

Despite wrong assumptions, magazines like Gramophone never had any remotely doctrinaire postion: just a wide spread of interests, tastes and thoughts among their writers on performance styles, as many a Collection survey shows.

In my Proms comments and elsewhere, I always try to be very specific about what a classical performance brings to the music, whatever the instrumental provenance; how other approaches might have gains and losses. After following the above conductors on record for so long, I couldn’t listen any other way.
In fact, those so-called HIPPs-specialists have encouraged a wonderful creative diversication, not a narrowing at all, renewing and enlivening the performance of classical works generally and certainly inspiring later artists."

(And would add as others already have, that "fortepianos" whether from 1790 or 1830, have a much wider range of design, brand name and character than most modern designs from Yamaha, Steinway etc., so shouldn't be dismissed stereotypically.
But vide the recent Chris Maene straight-strung design, as used by Barenboim etc; and the rich, long history of the Bosendorfer back to the 1820s (Schubert Sonatas!) preferred by such as Schiff and Hough today, but of course not exclusively...)....

There were plenty of pre war pioneers you could add Dart, Landowska, Dolmetsch I agree. But the movement didn’t really take off until the record companies put money into it - particularly into marketing it .And that process accelerated with CD’s as people realised they wouldn’t wear out so why not expand beyond core performances That and a general increase in wealth.

[Mandryka]

In addition me the timbre of the fortepiano is just a bit too splatty - there’s too much of a percussive effect maybe producing more transients ??

One thing that's the case in some fortepianos is that the timbres are less uniform, the timbre in the different registers are more distinct. In some contrapuntal music that could be an advantage because it helps the listener hear all the voices as equal contributors to the texture.

But of course it could be said that because I’ve spent years playing conventional pianos my ears have been conditioned to have that mellower tone as a reference sound,

I think if you've spent years playing modern pianos and you've been striving after that pure, even sound, and the most beautiful legato cantabile, then HIP is a big adjustment!

I'll tell you something. I LOVE old pianos and HIP performances. And then last week I discovered Thierry de Brunhoff's Chopin nocturnes, and it's just perfect! I like John Kouhri playing the nocturnes on what you would call a honky tonk, for different reasons. And of course I like Sofro and Cortot most -- who wouldn't? I guess I can go many ways!

[jayne lee wilson]

There were plenty of pre war pioneers you could add Dart, Landowska, Dolmetsch I agree. But the movement didn’t really take off until the record companies put money into it - particularly into marketing it .And that process accelerated with CD’s as people realised they wouldn’t wear out so why not expand beyond core performances That and a general increase in wealth.

So Bruggen, Harnoncourt, Hogwood, Norrington JEG etc etc... just rubbed their hands with glee at the thought of their profits did they? Top of the Classical Hit Parade! Oh, you old cynic, you...

(I just note here that leap of argumentative logic between "pioneers" and "movement"....when did this artist/record company hand-in-glove movement begin? Where were we standing when it happened? Did you have an insider at the secret meetings?)

[Ein Heldenleben]

So Bruggen, Harnoncourt, Hogwood, Norrington JEG etc etc... just rubbed their hands with glee at the thought of their profits did they? Top of the Classical Hit Parade! Oh, you old cynic, you...

No but I think the record companies did! They are not in it for the love of mankind believe me…

[Richard Barrett]

a musician friend of mine cannot stand the sound of piano and orchestra or large choir and orchestra. I suppose one reason is that they are so rarely in tune with one another.

Variations in intonation aren't the sort of thing that would worry me particularly, and I think this applies to early pianos too, and early instruments in general. Anyone who's been to a performance of baroque music will know that a lot more tuning goes on than with "modern" instruments, partly because a wooden-framed instrument with many strings isn't going to keep its tuning as reliably as one with a metal frame (as Stravinsky is supposed to have said, harpists spend 90% of their time tuning and the other 10% playing out of tune...) but that's the sound of the instrument, just like the flattened seventh partial is part of the sound of unvalved brass instruments. There's a lot of theoretical writing about which "tuning system" would have been used in some particular place and time, but I imagine that much of the time there would have been less system and more "that sounds more or less OK, let's get on with it".

[jayne lee wilson]

No but I think the record companies did! They are not in it for the love of mankind believe me…

Even BIS and CPO, Soli doe Gloria, Musik Museum, NMC, Chandos or Alpha?..Naive and Passacaille, Aparte......Most of the intense creativity and adventurousness is found among such independents and smaller labels now... and for some decades back.......

Zukunftsmusik! I raise my glass.....

[Ein Heldenleben]

Variations in intonation aren't the sort of thing that would worry me particularly, and I think this applies to early pianos too, and early instruments in general. Anyone who's been to a performance of baroque music will know that a lot more tuning goes on than with "modern" instruments, partly because a wooden-framed instrument with many strings isn't going to keep its tuning as reliably as one with a metal frame (as Stravinsky is supposed to have said, harpists spend 90% of their time tuning and the other 10% playing out of tune...) but that's the sound of the instrument, just like the flattened seventh partial is part of the sound of unvalved brass instruments. There's a lot of theoretical writing about which "tuning system" would have been used in some particular place and time, but I imagine that much of the time there would have been less system and more "that sounds more or less OK, let's get on with it".

I think as long as the piano and orchestra are out of tune together I can stand it . But in those hot nights at the Royal Albert Hall as the piano gets more and more out of tune with the woodwind I do find that a problem. There’s a bassoon entry in the Emperor which always has me wincing . I suppose often the player can’t even hear the pianist ?

[Richard Barrett]

No but I think the record companies did! They are not in it for the love of mankind believe me…

Indeed, and they're well known for milking their artists in various shameless ways, more obviously in the pop music world but not only there. And, while until the 1980s maybe, recording companies did tend to try to balance the profit motive with the genuine enthusiasms and intuitions of their A&R people, that kind of attitude gradually became extinct in the CD era, offset only by the increasing ease with which high quality recordings could be made and released. These days the "major labels" (if there's still more than one!) are basically irrelevant except in terms of repackaging their back catalogue.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Even BIS and CPO, Soli doe Gloria, Musik Museum, NMC, Chandos or Alpha?..Naive and Passacaille, Aparte......Most of the intense creativity and adventurousness is found among such independents and smaller labels now... and for some decades back.......

Zukunftsmusik! I raise my glass.....

This is getting a bit “what did the record companies ever do for us “ isn’t it ? Yes but I think a lot of the indies stepped in when the majors had wrung the dishcloth dry. Turned out there was still a bit more water in it if you ran a tight kitchen . That is no million pound spend on candles and flowers if you understand the reference !