Our Summer BAL 12 - Bruckner's 4th Symphony

[RichardB]

What is slowness in music (apart from tempo) ?

That's a very complicated issue! - one of my students is doing a whole PhD on the perception of speed in music. It has many dimensions - tempo, rate of change in various dimensions, relationships between simultaneous layers, which layer is perceived as being the foreground, and so on. There is also context - the main part of the opening movement of Beethoven 7 is perceived in the context of the slow introduction, whereas in Bruckner 6 the principal rhythm is there from the start, which might serve to make the Beethoven "sound faster". Or not! Another comparison might be made between the 1970s compositions of Reich and Glass. Whereas there is no harmonic movement at all in most of Glass's Music in Twelve Parts, it has a sense of "momentum" through the way that (typically) the emphasis is on changing metre as the cells from which the music is made are expanding and contracting (I'm thinking of Part 2 as typical of this), as well as the tempo being quite fast. I would say that Reich's Music for 18 Musicians "sounds slower" even though its rate of change in most ways is greater and its fastest layer is just as fast, because Reich puts so much emphasis on the sustained chord changes, which for any given section where they occur are always slowing down. Reich's Four Organs, now I think of it, is a radical example of tempo and rate of harmonic change being at odds: the tempo played by the maracas doesn't change at all, but provides a vantage point from which the harmonic changes can be heard systematically slowing down.

[jayne lee wilson]

Great Post Richard, which I must reread and has me reaching for those Reich works for the evening listen....!

Still sad though, that I still seem to be the only one here who has heard the Hrusa Bruckner 4x3.....

I played the 1874 4th again at dawn today - horns in the dawn - and was amazed yet again. Korstvedt's New Edition for this recording, in which the further-revised orchestration (from Bruckner's 1876 revisions) has created a warmer more colourful sound, has put the original on a higher artistic plane; so with the lovely Bamberg sound, you really can hear it as a completely valid Bruckner 4th, not some discarded sketch.

Like the 1873 3rd, it shows Bruckner at his most daring and experimental. In (i) (ii) and (iv) most of the same themes are there as in the familiar version, but in utterly different, constantly changing contexts, with many unusual, beautiful counterpoints & transformations that were cut out later - from the very start with that legendary horncall.....

The development in (i) begins with a dreamlike passage quoting the Wagner Ring "Sleep" motif (which the 1873 3rd does, but at the end of the development...it seemed to mean a lot to Bruckner, dovetailing well into quotations from his own Masses ) .....

Not to mention that completely different scherzo....unlike anything else at the time...

I really disliked 1874 when I first heard it, with Inbal and Rozhdestvensky. Under Robert Simpson's influence to some extent (most Brucknerians owe him much & are to some degree) I kept away from it for years.
But Norrington, Young and others changed my perception, and now Hrusa is better still.. I won't be going back to 1878-80 for some time!

[visualnickmos]

Of course it doesn't....what an unfortunately clichéd and dated misjudgment.
The fiery Symphony No.1, finale of No.2, Most of No.6, the formally-elusive quicksilver finale of No.7?....Very upbeat indeed.....and so on. As for the futuristic, demonic scherzo of the 9th & the extreme contrast with the trio....well...

Only poor conducting makes Bruckner seem "slow" in any superficially generalised sense, to those who are relatively unfamiliar with it.
As for No.4 (not slow with Kna or Andreae or Rögner etc etc), there's no way past this magisterial achievement......wonderful performances of all three main editions, with many helpful comparative excerpts. Every Brucknerian has to get to know it, and know it well...


Bruckner: Symphony No. 4 in E-Flat Major, WAB 104 "Romantic" (The 3 Versions)

Bamberg Symphony Orchestra, Jakub Hrusa

• Released on 17/09/2021 by Accentus Music
• QOBUZ LOSSLESS.
• https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/br.../g36xcg9tif8ya

I maybe missing a point, I accept, but why would one wish to listens to versions that didn't make the 'final cut?'

[jayne lee wilson]

I maybe missing a point, I accept, but why would one wish to listens to versions that didn't make the 'final cut?'

See #212 and my earlier posts for more, but it is rather more complicated than you imply....

In fact, the "final cut" was not the familiar 1878-80 one, but Bruckner's authorised 1888 "First Published Edition" with many further revisions to orchestration, far more expression/tempi markings and significant structural alterations especially in the scherzo and finale. Korstvedt's notes to the Accent set go into great detail about this. And of course there is no more knowledgable Bruckner scholar alive.

1888 was actually the version by which the musical world got to know the 4th up to the 1950s, frequently played/recorded by Kna and Furtwangler. Until the Accent set, the only modern recording was the Vanska on BIS (notes by Korstvedt again, who else would you ask...), and very fine it is.

The Masterclass....

https://www.eclassical.com/shop/art96/BIS-1746-SA_booklet.pdf-de0873.pdf

[silvestrione]

The Masterclass....
https://www.eclassical.com/shop/art9...pdf-de0873.pdf

Thanks for the link! A very interesting read. Convinced me I need to listen to this version.

[HighlandDougie]

In fact, the "final cut" was not the familiar 1878-80 one, but Bruckner's authorised 1888 "First Published Edition" with many further revisions to orchestration, far more expression/tempi markings and significant structural alterations especially in the scherzo and finale. Korstvedt's notes to the Accent set go into great detail about this. And of course there is no more knowledgable Bruckner scholar alive.

I had always had a bit of a problem with the fourth movement of the AB 4th - not sure why but it never really seemed to work for me as a satisfactory conclusion to the preceding three movements. However, I went to a concert in 2018 with the (very good) Yomiuri Nippon Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sylvain Cambreling playing this Korstvedt 1888 edition in the Bruckner-friendly acoustics of the Suntory Hall. And, bingo, it all made sense. A revelation in the best sense of the word. I'm not sure why more orchestras/conductors haven't taken it up but am delighted that Jakob Hruša has done so.

[Barbirollians]

Apart from me has anyone heard the. VPO/Thielemann ?

[jayne lee wilson]

Apart from me has anyone heard the. VPO/Thielemann ?

Previous experiences led me to feel that Thielemann was interpretively a less compelling Brucknerian who rerecords the same editions quite often (and - consulting Berky - with broadly similar timings) so I turned away a few years back. Unless I've missed something he seems to have no interest in original editions which, in the case of B2 and B3, is a serious lack of artistic curiosity.

Perhaps I should try some of his recent releases, but........
But if the hour grows late and sleep is elusive, I'll seek out this 4th...

[Barbirollians]

Previous experiences led me to feel that Thielemann was interpretively a less compelling Brucknerian who rerecords the same editions quite often (and - consulting Berky - with broadly similar timings) so I turned away a few years back. Unless I've missed something he seems to have no interest in original editions which, in the case of B2 and B3, is a serious lack of artistic curiosity.

Perhaps I should try some of his recent releases, but........
But if the hour grows late and sleep is elusive, I'll seek out this 4th...

He would be far from my favourite conductor but I really enjoyed this.

[BBMmk2]

He would be far from my favourite conductor but I really enjoyed this.

Give me Wand and the BPO, anytime!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

For the record, I have:

VPO/Furtwangler
VPO/Bohm
VPO/Abbado

Is there a theme here:

[BBMmk2]

For the record, I have:

VPO/Furtwangler
VPO/Bohm
VPO/Abbado

Is there a theme here:

True, there is, but I think you can’t go wrong with my aforementioned example.

[Barbirollians]

True, there is, but I think you can’t go wrong with my aforementioned example.

The Wand is very good but have you heard the new Thielemann ?

[BBMmk2]

The Wand is very good but have you heard the new Thielemann ?

Not yet.

[Barbirollians]

Not yet.

I found last night in a pile of what I thought were unused CD-R/s - the copy I had of Wand’s Bruckner 9 from the Proms I think in about 2001.

Played it this morning - utterly utterly marvellous.

Now I am sure I had the Schubert 9 too.