Our Summer BAL 12 - Bruckner's 4th Symphony

[Barbirollians]

I finally managed to get hold of a copy of the Acanta set of Bruckner 4 & 5 with Munich PO/Kempe secondhand for a reasonable price .

I think this is the best recording of the Fourth Symphony I have ever heard. I was utterly transfixed by it . Can not wait to listen to the Fifth today.

[Cockney Sparrow]

My favourite Bruckner 5, by a very long chalk, is from the Munich PO under Kempe - coupled with an equally seminal 4th. Now, sadly, rather hard to find at a reasonable price, snap it up if you do stumble on it anywhere! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphony-4-5...kempe+bruckner

I think Karafan is only an occasional poster here now...

(Edit: I now seen this, and the Carinco releases (which I've found on Google Play Music too) are referenced on the 5th Symphony thread).

[Barbirollians]

Bought the new Sony VPO/Thielemann after RO’s very positive review in Gramophone .

I would hardly call myself his biggest fan . Some rather cod Fürtwangler slow stuff out there from him but this is outstanding . Not fast but it doesn’t sound at all slow and the VPO play gloriously with much very transparent airy textures . Highly recommended.

[BBMmk2]

As part of my Christmas presents, I had the BPO/Wand. What an excellent recording!

[Barbirollians]

As part of my Christmas presents, I had the BPO/Wand. What an excellent recording!

It is indeed - I am fond of all those late BPO/Wand recordings.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I would hardly call myself his biggest fan . Some rather cod Fürtwangler slow stuff out there from him but this is outstanding . Not fast but it doesn’t sound at all slow and the VPO play gloriously with much very transparent airy textures . Highly recommended.

Bruckner always sounds slow.

I don't say this as a negative criticism. Bruckner's harmonies move very slowly, probably to create a feeling of expansiveness.

[jayne lee wilson]

Bruckner always sounds slow.

I don't say this as a negative criticism. Bruckner's harmonies move very slowly, probably to create a feeling of expansiveness.

Of course it doesn't....what an unfortunately clichéd and dated misjudgment.
The fiery Symphony No.1, finale of No.2, Most of No.6, the formally-elusive quicksilver finale of No.7?....Very upbeat indeed.....and so on. As for the futuristic, demonic scherzo of the 9th & the extreme contrast with the trio....well...

Only poor conducting makes Bruckner seem "slow" in any superficially generalised sense, to those who are relatively unfamiliar with it.
As for No.4 (not slow with Kna or Andreae or Rögner etc etc), there's no way past this magisterial achievement......wonderful performances of all three main editions, with many helpful comparative excerpts. Every Brucknerian has to get to know it, and know it well...


Bruckner: Symphony No. 4 in E-Flat Major, WAB 104 "Romantic" (The 3 Versions)

Bamberg Symphony Orchestra, Jakub Hrusa

• Released on 17/09/2021 by Accentus Music
• QOBUZ LOSSLESS.
• https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/br.../g36xcg9tif8ya

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Of course it doesn't....what an unfortunately clichéd and dated misjudgment.
The fiery Symphony No.1, finale of No.2, Most of No.6, the formally-elusive quicksilver finale of No.7?....Very upbeat indeed.....and so on. As for the futuristic, demonic scherzo of the 9th & the extreme contrast with the trio....well...

Only poor conducting makes Bruckner seem "slow" in any superficially generalised sense, to those who are relatively unfamiliar with it.
As for No.4 (not slow with Kna or Andreae or Rögner etc etc), there's no way past this magisterial achievement......wonderful performances of all three main editions, with many helpful comparative excerpts. Every Brucknerian has to get to know it, and know it well...

Er... I was referring to Bruckner's harmonic progression, which is expansive, whoever conducts it. It there in scores, whoever conducts it. This has nothing to do with how many notes are played in a second - more to do with how many changes of harmony there are in a minute.

[jayne lee wilson]

Er... I was referring to Bruckner's harmonic progression, which is expansive, whoever conducts it. It there in scores, whoever conducts it. This has nothing to do with how many notes are played in a second - more to do with how many changes of harmony there are in a minute.

"Bruckner always sounds slow" was hardly a nuanced expression......

In any case, those harmonies do not always move slowly, - they move at their own uniquely individual pace, as Dr Simpson long since analysed.... see his commentary on the 7th's finale....

But I guess Bruckner is from another musical universe really.... maybe it really did help that I had no formal musical training...

[Lordgeous]

Here is RO's interesting article on the Bruckner 4 http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page...mL#header-logo

The link doesnt appear to work and haven't managed to find it with a search.

[jayne lee wilson]

Osborne's G-Collection article on the 4th is in 4/2007, as good as you'd expect from him, but it is now a little out of date about scholarship around the editions (not to mention recordings) and Bruckner's attitudes toward them: he seems to have overseen and authorised the 1888 "first published edition".
But more importantly, we now have the chance to hear them all, in several excellent recordings, such as the Hrusa of all three main versions that I linked to above. This includes very useful notes by Benjamin Korstvedt, the editor of the all the versions on the album, and a very distinguished and insightful Bruckner scholar.

....so just go and listen, you'll be very well rewarded.....1874 is an amazing, fantastical work, especially in the finale - and with a completely different scherzo of striking originality. So if you just give it time.....

Best not to hear the familiar 1878-80 alongside it though! Leave that aside for a bit...

[BBMmk2]

It is indeed - I am fond of all those late BPO/Wand recordings.

I think I need to get the rest of the set?

[RichardB]

Whether Bruckner's music "sounds slow" or not depends on which aspect of it you're focusing on, not on how much "formal musical training" you have, which is neither an advantage or a disadvantage when it comes to listening - composers don't make their music to be appreciated only by those with "formal musical training", besides which those three words can mean such a wide variety of things they're almost meaningless. The rate of harmonic chance in Bruckner's music often is slow, compared to many other 19th century composers - Brahms, for example. Think of the Scherzo of no.8 for example. If you're focusing on how the harmony is changing you might find that not much is happening. But that is actually one of the radical things about Bruckner's music, not a deficiency but a different way of articulating time in music. If he had wanted faster moving harmony he would have written it (and often did). It sounds slow and ponderous to many people, but then Xenakis sounds dissonant and chaotic to many people. Life is too short to spend doggedly insisting that it isn't.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Whether Bruckner's music "sounds slow" or not depends on which aspect of it you're focusing on, not on how much "formal musical training" you have, which is neither an advantage or a disadvantage when it comes to listening - composers don't make their music to be appreciated only by those with "formal musical training", besides which those three words can mean such a wide variety of things they're almost meaningless. The rate of harmonic chance in Bruckner's music often is slow, compared to many other 19th century composers - Brahms, for example. Think of the Scherzo of no.8 for example. If you're focusing on how the harmony is changing you might find that not much is happening. But that is actually one of the radical things about Bruckner's music, not a deficiency but a different way of articulating time in music. If he had wanted faster moving harmony he would have written it (and often did). It sounds slow and ponderous to many people, but then Xenakis sounds dissonant and chaotic to many people. Life is too short to spend doggedly insisting that it isn't.

Do you think , despite the slower harmonic pace of Bruckner , he manages to maintain momentum or create the illusion of momentum , though rhythm? If you contrast the 1st movt of three symphonies in A - Mozart 28 , Beethoven 7 and Bruckner 6 the pace of harmonic change is slower in the latter . But the dotted rhythms create a sense of forward propulsion. ( It occurs to me there’s a similar rhythm in the Beethoven main subject) . To me the Beethoven introduction with its bold key changes has much more a sense of time standing still than the more glacially paced harmonies of the Bruckner. What is slowness in music (apart from tempo) ?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Think of the Scherzo of no.8 for example. If you're focusing on how the harmony is changing you might find that not much is happening. But that is actually one of the radical things about Bruckner's music, not a deficiency but a different way of articulating time in music. If he had wanted faster moving harmony he would have written it (and often did). It sounds slow and ponderous to many people, but then Xenakis sounds dissonant and chaotic to many people. Life is too short to spend doggedly insisting that it isn't.

Precisely. Like a giant edifice. Still, but very detailed and magnificent.