Our Summer BAL 12 - Bruckner's 4th Symphony

[Mandryka]

I think Karajan is a symbol of a "nasty" (if not a Nazi) conductor for some people. Hitler disliked him and his conducting. Bohm, on the other hand, was an enthusiastic and vociferous supporter of Hitler. Yet as far as I know, reviewer's don't seem to let this effect their judgement of his recordings.

Could Radio 3 not make it a rule to send their reviewers the CD's with the artist's details blocked out. It would be interesting to see what judgements they would then reach!

I don't think it's so much Karajan's membership of the Nazi Party that some reviewers find difficult to ignore (as we know, he was far from being alone in that), as his post-war career as the vast wealth he accumulated later in life: as he didn't inherit it (as Beecham did) but made it himself, he is an obvious target for a certain type of critic.

[Barbirollians]

I don't think it's so much Karajan's membership of the Nazi Party that some reviewers find difficult to ignore (as we know, he was far from being alone in that), as his post-war career as the vast wealth he accumulated later in life: as he didn't inherit it (as Beecham did) but made it himself, he is an obvious target for a certain type of critic.

I am very fond of Karajan's EMI Bruckner records of 4 and 7 . I did not hear this morning's BAL but I like the Wand . I also have the Walter,Celi, Jochum and Klemperer recordings . If I could only have one the 1970 Karajan would be it

[BBMmk2]

I missed this BaL. Whats the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra/Harnoncoiurt version like?

[Tony Halstead]

I missed the first 10 minutes.
Did S.J. make any mention at all of the Bruno Walter/ Columbia SO version?

[Richard Tarleton]

I missed the first 10 minutes.
Did S.J. make any mention at all of the Bruno Walter/ Columbia SO version?

No, hence my #33. He said he listened to 25 versions, didn't name them all, so we don't know if he considered it.

I listened to it yesterday afternoon anyway, having recently replaced my worn LP with the CD

[Mr Pee]

Could Radio 3 not make it a rule to send their reviewers the CD's with the artist's details blocked out. It would be interesting to see what judgements they would then reach!

I think that is an excellent idea. Many reviewers seem to have pre-conceptions regarding certain conductors, or in some cases a clear bias toward recordings of, shall we say, a certain vintage, to the extent that one can often have a pretty good idea which performance they will favour from the very beginning.

Listening "blind" would result in a much fairer judgement, unmarred by previous experience and personal preference.

[aeolium]

Some reviewers do make a practice of forcing themselves to listen "blind" to the recordings. For this to work properly, though, they also need to broadcast the extracts without first naming the performers and, ideally, not expressing an opinion about it until after the listeners have heard the extract. If the listener is told before an extract that the performance of it is far too ponderous it is difficult for the listener to hear it except in the light of that comment. I have heard the occasional review which broadly followed these principles.

[french frank]

I wonder who would be brave enough to put their reputation on the line in that way?

[amateur51]

I wonder who would be brave enough to put their reputation on the line in that way?

Caliban has told us several times that this is what happens on French radio - surely we all know that preconceptions, reputations and received opinions can be very misleading as a guide to personal preference? In my opinion there is no shame in choosing what might be seen as a 'rank outsider' if you can say (not explain) why you choose it in preference to another.

There again, maybe the Joyce Hatto affair has made some critics wary?

[french frank]

There again, maybe the Joyce Hatto affair has made some critics wary?

There's definitely that consideration - though sincerely held opinions of knowledgeable people have their value and should be a signpost for people to discover what they might not know (or might have dismissed too quickly), and make up their own minds.

Nobody really believes in the concept of a 'winner', surely?

[Bryn]

There again, maybe the Joyce Hatto affair has made some critics wary?

That should not be the case. The recordings fiddled with were very fine in most cases. Indeed, the Paul Kim Vingt Regards CDs are among the very best, to my ears:



and I would not have known of them had Barrington-Coupe not tweaked them.

[amateur51]

There's definitely that consideration - though sincerely held opinions of knowledgeable people have their value and should be a signpost for people to discover what they might not know (or might have dismissed too quickly), and make up their own minds.

Nobody really believes in the concept of a 'winner', surely?

I had the opportunity to speak with Bryce Morrison, one of the critics mocked in print (and elsewhere) for being 'fooled' by the Hatto affair, about six months after. It was obviously painful for him and I tried to reassure him along the lines that you have mentioned, french frank but I fear that the poor fellow's confidence was shattered, temporarily I hope

The concept of a 'winner' is alien to many, myself included, and an 'innocent ear' approach to CD Review might dispel its grip but some people do like and hold to the concept.

[amateur51]

That should not be the case. The recordings fiddled with were very fine in most cases. Indeed, the Paul Kim Vingt Regards CDs are among the very best, to my ears:



and I would not have known of them had Barrington-Coupe not tweaked them.

A case of unintended consequences, Bryn

[Mandryka]

I had the opportunity to speak with Bryce Morrison, one of the critics mocked in print (and elsewhere) for being 'fooled' by the Hatto affair, about six months after. It was obviously painful for him and I tried to reassure him along the lines that you have mentioned, french frank but I fear that the poor fellow's confidence was shattered, temporarily I hope

The concept of a 'winner' is alien to many, myself included, and an 'innocent ear' approach to CD Review might dispel its grip but some people do like and hold to the concept.

This reminds me of the edition of that programme, Faking It, a few years back, where the lead singer of a Leeds punk group (called The Dead Pets, iirc) was coached in being a conductor for a competition at which he'd conduct the RPO at the Fairfield Halls (in a bit of Rossini, I think). He was actually a good-looking bloke and looked great in a tux; couldn't read a note of music but the experts somehow got him there and he managed to fool at least one of the critics who was interviewed on camera and said he had 'great potential'. The look on the man's face when told he'd been conned will stay with me forever.....

[amateur51]

This reminds me of the edition of that programme, Faking It, a few years back, where the lead singer of a Leeds punk group (called The Dead Pets, iirc) was coached in being a conductor for a competition at which he'd conduct the RPO at the Fairfield Halls (in a bit of Rossini, I think). He was actually a good-looking bloke and looked great in a tux; couldn't read a note of music but the experts somehow got him there and he managed to fool at least one of the critics who was interviewed on camera and said he had 'great potential'. The look on the man's face when told he'd been conned will stay with me forever.....

So perhaps French critics have less investment in their own sense of importance?