Our Summer BAL 12 - Bruckner's 4th Symphony

[Herrmannesque]

Presumably, Jochum's and Bohm's recordings were binned for the same reason?

I didn't listen either (impossible on a Saturday morning) but then I'm satisfied with the many Bruckner 4 recordings I have, including HvK's.

I think Karajan is a symbol of a "nasty" (if not a Nazi) conductor for some people. Hitler disliked him and his conducting. Bohm, on the other hand, was an enthusiastic and vociferous supporter of Hitler. Yet as far as I know, reviewer's don't seem to let this effect their judgement of his recordings.

Could Radio 3 not make it a rule to send their reviewers the CD's with the artist's details blocked out. It would be interesting to see what judgements they would then reach!

[Northender]

I wonder whether we will get the whole symphony on Monday, or just a 'bleeding chunk'? I fear the latter is the more likely.

The schedule shows a 1050 start, so we may be in luck!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was surprised at Johnson's dismissal of the Bohm as 'not wearing well'. Sounds just as good to me now as when I first heard it!

It also now seems to be in vogue with some reviewers to knock Karajan's Bruckner. I still think he is very hard to beat in these symphonies 'in the round'.

I agree with the choice of winner, though. It is not just the superb performance with the Wand but the clear, crisp quality of sound.

I don't know it - looking forward to Monday's broadcast; as long as it's not, as Bryn mentions, "not all there"!

Quite taken with Haitink/LSO, too.

[scottycelt]

So BPO/Wand 'won'. I have that recording but it doesn't get played that often. IMO, Wand was never truly at home with either 4 or 7, good as they still are. Others take precedence for me, notably the live Concertgebouw/Jochum and the seriously underrated VPO/Haitink.

I agree that Wand can be patchy in Bruckner, but not with your opinion of that No 4!

His specialty, of course, was No 8, which really established his reputation as a significant Bruckner conductor.

[johnb]

So Stephen Johnson doesn't like Karajan's interpretations of Bruckner, fair enough. But I think it a misuse of the critic's licence to use the word "inhuman" in connection with a performance. But then our Stephen has form in this area. In a previous Bruckner BAL he described a Karajan performance as "sinister". Rather over the top don't you think? But it's obvious what he's alluding to and what informs the judgement. Yes, we all know HvK was (along with millions of others in Germany) member of the Nazi Party but it's a bit silly to read an artist's political affiliations in their interpretative style.

OK, you didn't agree with or enjoy today's BAL. But I suggest that you are reading far more into SJ's words than is justified.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

OK, you didn't agree with or enjoy today's BAL. But I suggest that you are reading far more into SJ's words than is justified.

Possibly.

Equally possibly:

OK, so SJ doesn't agree with or enjoy Karajan's recordings. But I suggest that he is reading far more of Karajan's biography into these recordings than is justified.

[Herrmannesque]

OK, you didn't agree with or enjoy today's BAL. But I suggest that you are reading far more into SJ's words than is justified.

I enjoyed the program apart from those remarks near the top. I just wonder if the words "sinister" or "inhuman" are warranted and why Karajan seems to attract this kind of comment more than other conductors.

[Herrmannesque]

Sorry, I didn't want to make this thread about Karajan. I'm off to make a sandwich and to listen to Music Matters. It should interesting. Is classical music for everybody?

[Petrushka]

I agree that Wand can be patchy in Bruckner, but not with your opinion of that No 4!

His specialty, of course, was No 8, which really established his reputation as a significant Bruckner conductor.

I'll listen to it again tonight. As I say, it's a few years since I last gave it an airing so I may feel differently.

[vinteuil]

... if, like me, you liked the Wand/BPO - perhaps you thought you might want more than just his Bruckner 4. If you want the Bruckner/Wand/BPO box set, the cheapest option at the moment seems to be our amazonian friends in Spain - some 27 euros for a six CD set (viz: 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9 ) ....

[HighlandDougie]

Thanks, Vinteuil. Duly ordered, although I have a feeling that I already have 4, 5 and 8 - but they're in Scotland so a second copy for France definitely needed

[Black Swan]

Could Radio 3 not make it a rule to send their reviewers the CD's with the artist's details blocked out. It would be interesting to see what judgements they would then reach!

I didn't listen this morning as for me, I really am ambivalent to Bruckner so had little interest. However, the quote I've attached is an interesting idea of a blind review of the works with the reviewer knowing who and what orchestra was being reviewed.

John

[Hornspieler]

I didn't listen this morning as for me, I really am ambivalent to Bruckner so had little interest. However, the quote I've attached is an interesting idea of a blind review of the works with the reviewer knowing who and what orchestra was being reviewed.

John

Yes. Like the annual brassband competition where the adjudicators sit in a tent in the RAH.

I'm all in favour and I'm sure that there would be a few surprises.

HS

[Mandryka]

So Stephen Johnson doesn't like Karajan's interpretations of Bruckner, fair enough. But I think it a misuse of the critic's licence to use the word "inhuman" in connection with a performance. But then our Stephen has form in this area. In a previous Bruckner BAL he described a Karajan performance as "sinister". Rather over the top don't you think? But it's obvious what he's alluding to and what informs the judgement. Yes, we all know HvK was (along with millions of others in Germany) member of the Nazi Party but it's a bit silly to read an artist's political affiliations in their interpretative style.

I really hate this kind of 'criticism'.

I'm sure Stephen Johnson is affiliated to his own version of the 'Nazi Party'.

[Sir Velo]

I was surprised at Johnson's dismissal of the Bohm as 'not wearing well'. Sounds just as good to me now as when I first heard it!

Never quite sure what people mean by this sort of remark. Does it mean that the masters have deteriorated to such an extent that new pressings are sonically marred? Or does it mean that the performance style is now considered to be dated? Or, perhaps, the reviewer is listening on inferior equipment?