Our Summer BAL 44: Schubert Symphony No 9 in C Major D944

[CallMePaul]

It is some time since this was reviewed in BAL and there are plenty of very varied recordings to choose from. I have 3: an old Israel PO/ Mehta on LP (not sure if this has been reissued on CD), Rattle/ Berlin Phil on EMI and in the complete HIP performance by Anima Eterna Brugge/ Jos van Immerseel on Zig-Zag Territoires. I am also aware of HIP recordings from London Classical Players/ Norrington, OAE/ Mackerras and Hanover Band/ Goodman. Of course, many of the big name conductors have also recorded the symphony with a range of orchestras: Karajan, Abbado, Jochum, Boehm, Klemperer, Krips, Boult to name just a few who come to mind, not to mention conductors and orchestras who make more than a passing nod to HIPP: Zinman and Daumsgard come to mind but I know there are plenty of others!

This has long been a favourite symphony of mine and I am coming to the view that HIPP has a lot to say about Schubert. OK, the trombones have a lot of work in this symphony but this does not justify the orchestra fielding 30 violins and proportionate numbers of lower strings. I have heard well-balanced performances from chamber orchestras and other orchestras with half the usual number of string players. with period instruments a large number of strings are unnecessary and the smaller forces allow the woodwind lines to be heard more clearly.

By the way, van Immerseel, Zinman and others refer to this symphony, confusingly, as No8, which most people think of as the Unfinished. This is because they are using a German edition that has renumbered the symphonies, omitting the complete but unorchestrated No7 in E major. To confuse matters even more, some older recordings may refer to it as No7, with the Unfinished as No8!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Agree entirely about HIP performances - and bearing in mind the orchestras that Schubert played with were smaller ensembles, giving him his mastery of orchestration and practical ideas of orchestral balance. Goodman/Hanover Band my particular favourite.

But - it can work astonishingly well with a sensitive conductor and a larger orchestra. As ever (for me) Furtwangler breaks all my prejudices and gives a performance that just staggers the imagination with its insights and energetic intellectual passion.

But ...

the complete but unorchestrated No7 in E major.

I don't think this is true, CMP - having seen facsimiles of the manuscript of the E major (at around the time Brian Newbould was producing his performing edition of it) there are many many pages consisting of just bars of short score with just the bass line written in and occasional "notes to self"about what some of the other instruments might play. Unlike the B minor (which any competent Musician familiar with Schubert's handwriting can make complete instrumental parts from) the E major requires considerable imaginative work from an editor to produce notes that performers can play.

To confuse matters even more, some older recordings may refer to it as No7, with the Unfinished as No8!

The latest edition of the Deutsch catalogue clarifies the situation by excluding the E major (and other "unfinished" symphonic sketches) and calling the B minor (which is "incomplete" rather than "unfinished") "Number 7", and the C major "Number 8".

[cloughie]

This is not by any means complete and some may not be available but as a starter list I offer:
COE Abbado
OCS Argenta
HO Barbirolli
HO Barbirolli
BPO Barenboim
CAO Bernstein
NYPO Bernstein
DSO Blomstedt
BPO Bohm
VPO Bohm
LPO Boult
MunPO Celibidache
PO d'Avalos
DSO Davis C
VPO Eliot Gardiner
BPO Furtwangler
NatPO Gerhardt
CSO Giulini
BavRSO Giulini
HB Goodman
ES Groves
NPO Guschlbauer
BavRSO Jochum
BPO Karajan
VPO Karajan
VPO Kertesz
PO Klemperer
VPO Knappertsbusch
LSO Krips
CAO Krips
RPO Kubelik
HO Loughran
PH Maag
PO Mackerras
OAE Mackerras
ASMF Marriner
LGO Masur
IPO Mehta
MenFO Menhuin
BSO Munch
VPO Muti
LCP Norrington
BBCPO Noseda
RPO Paita
LPO Pritchard
SWDRSO Rosbaud
DSO Sawallisch
SDRSO Schuricht
DSO Sinopoli
MinSO Skrowaczewski
StLSO Slatkin
VPO Solti
BamSO Stein
BSO Steinberg
MunSO Swarowsky
CO Szell
CO Szell
DSO Tate
BPO Tennstedt
LSO Walter
ColSO Walter
ColRSO Wand
PCass Wildner
BBCSSO Yuasa
ZTO Zinman

The Barbirolli and Szell repeats are deliberate as there are two recordings.
Please feel free to add my omissions.
As far as I am concerned at this stage of my life I am not changing from No9 and those well meaning pedants who change the nomenclature do no favours in confusing a new generation getting to know their Schubert.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

those well meaning pedants who change the nomenclature do no favours in confusing a new generation getting to know their Schubert.

It's the "new generation" (ah! memories of naff Summer Special television of yesteryear) that isn't fazed by the new and more logical numbering, cloughie - it's the oldies who get their numbers muddled.

[richardfinegold]

This work was an early love for me, when I discovered Barbirolli/Halle . I was surprised when I started reading Musical Criticism to discover that many people--players, Critics, and listeners-despise it for it's length and repetitiousness .
My current favorite is Herrweghe, which combines HIPP sensibilities with a modern orchestra

[Nick Armstrong]

This is not by any means complete and some may not be available but as a starter list I offer...

A most diligent and generous offering: thanks cloughie!

I was immediately taken on its issue (and still have great affection for) Jeffrey Tate's reading with the Dresden Staatskapelle. It's done dead straight, no messing around, with detailed energy in the phrasing, and I think lets the music speak in a cumulative way - combined with the sound, style and skill of that orchestra, one of my top favourites on the planet, plus a great recording in the Lukaskirche, it all adds up to a performance I can't take my ears off when I start listening, and which I tend to turn to first of all.

Seems to be deleted though a couple of copies are floating around (it was most recently on Berlin Classics, having been issued initially on EMI).

Easier to grab it on the 'tube:

[cloughie]

It's the "new generation" (ah! memories of naff Summer Special television of yesteryear) that isn't fazed by the new and more logical numbering, cloughie - it's the oldies who get their numbers muddled.

I was thinking of the new generation who don't do classical a lot and may pick up a new Schubert 8 and wonder why it lasts for 50 instead of 25 mins and why it was finished!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was thinking of the new generation who don't do classical a lot and may pick up a new Schubert 8 and wonder why it lasts for 50 instead of 25 mins and why it was finished!

First of all (and apologies for not mentioning this before) I need to second Cali's thanks for your list of recordings.

As for the "new generation", why should anyone who doesn't do classical a lot expect the eighth to last 25 minutes and be unfinished? It's only those of us who do do classical who might expect this - those with a tabula relatively rasaed don't have any such preconceptions. The B minor Symphony is the next performable Symphony that Schubert wrote after his Sixth. It needs considerably more explanation to those who don't do classical music as to why it isn't Number seven - the sort of convoluted explanation that probably reminds them why they don't do classical a lot in the first place!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Incidentally, it was Tate's recording of the work that Cali mentions that was the first to describe it as "Number 8" - hedging its bets in the British release:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jeffrey+tate,+schubert&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&imgil=_kMBY1926MFJlM%253A%253BzRg-4-bVKy4_AM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.amazon.com%25252FSchubert-Symphony-No-Great-Tate%25252Fdp%25252FB000AXWFS2&source=iu&pf=m&fir=_kMBY1926MFJlM%253A%252CzRg-4-bVKy4_AM%252C_&dpr=1&usg=__A7op2jkvgyCy5tu177_ouxzvYNU%3D&ved=0CC0QyjdqFQoTCO3Hu-amhccCFdIt2wodYAQJUg&ei=_2C7Va3MD9Lb7AbgiKSQBQ#imgrc=_kMBY1926MFJlM%3A&usg=__A7op2jkvgyCy5tu177_ouxzvYNU%3D

More definite for the less sensitive souls on the Continent:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jeffrey+tate,+schubert&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&imgil=_kMBY1926MFJlM%253A%253BzRg-4-bVKy4_AM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.amazon.com%25252FSchubert-Symphony-No-Great-Tate%25252Fdp%25252FB000AXWFS2&source=iu&pf=m&fir=_kMBY1926MFJlM%253A%252CzRg-4-bVKy4_AM%252C_&dpr=1&usg=__A7op2jkvgyCy5tu177_ouxzvYNU%3D&ved=0CC0QyjdqFQoTCO3Hu-amhccCFdIt2wodYAQJUg&ei=_2C7Va3MD9Lb7AbgiKSQBQ#imgrc=VrWtVAWkV-6oqM%3A&usg=__A7op2jkvgyCy5tu177_ouxzvYNU%3D

[Nick Armstrong]

Incidentally, it was Tate's recording of the work that Cali mentions that was the first to describe it as "Number 8"

Yes I remember now! I recall wondering at the time what they were on about! But as I think for some reason I bought it while in Cologne (Köln for the HIPPers!), I dimissed it as a continental eccentricity...

[teamsaint]

Yes I remember now! I recall wondering at the time what they were on about! But as I think for some reason I bought it while in Cologne (Köln for the HIPPers!), I dimissed it as a continental eccentricity...

Ah, so you didn't make a mistake because you were one over the Eight , then? (Stein emoticon handy there).

It had better be good, Cals, just invested a bit of pay day happiness on your suggestion.

[Nick Armstrong]

Ah, so you didn't make a mistake because you were one over the Eight , then? (Stein emoticon handy there).

It had better be good, Cals, just invested a bit of pay day happiness on your suggestion.

indeed. I am confident you will like it. Come back and tell us!

[teamsaint]

indeed. I am confident you will like it. Come back and tell us!

come back? from where? Should i be somewhere?


Note to self: Avoid Schubert Symphony numbering gags in future.

[Nick Armstrong]

come back? from where? Should i be somewhere?

From your intense listening to your new Schubert 7/8/9 purchase once it arrives!!

[Richard Tarleton]

Please feel free to add my omissions.

A stupendous list, cloughie, thank you from me too. May I add Budapest Festival O/Fischer. I think my quest for a satisfactory 9 on disc (not really being a multi-version person) has probably ended with that - my previous versions (on LP) occupied either end of the spectrum - Walter/ColSO, which looks forward to Bruckner, and Norrington/LCP, which...doesn't. Of the two, I've always preferred the Walter