Haydn 2032

[Bryn]

German - not my strong point!

So did "Schmarrn" carry the meaning "rubbish" in Haydn's time, or is that a more recent evolution of its usage? I can see how he would have described Il Distratto as a mishmash, given its provenance, but could he really have been dismissing it as rubbish?

[jayne lee wilson]

What of Haydn's Symphony No.60, anyway?

For me it is a perfect, compressed 4-movement stürm und drang symphony with an especially shtoormy finale - but with two extra pieces tacked on. (Inadvisably, perhaps. ) The Lamentatione is very nice (shame it couldn't have come after the minuet in a 5-movement arch-form) , but the "joke" in the 6th movement soon wears thin - doesn't it? Tiresome, really.... or were we only meant to hear it once? Laugh and say - OK, what's 61 like then?

Listened to Rattle's CBSO recording of No. 60 (c/w...70) to prepare for the new Armonico/Antonini one.... goodness me. I mean, just WOW. Were they really THAT good? Yes, they were.
The remarkable level of tied-to-the-baton lightning response in the playing, the sheer agility in phrase and articulation, is astounding but - above all, it never compromises the sheer beauty of tone, strings most especially. One of this poignantly remembered partnership's best records, and on the 1991/5 CD, audiophile sound to match - spacious, delicate, such true pps....! Warwick Arts Centre (Woods/Hatch/Handley/Hughes) often comes across better than any Symphony Hall "tapings"....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-60-70-x/dp/B00000DNPM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1489457162&sr=8-2&keywords=Haydn+Rattle

More later on 60/70/2032 (I hope...), but - Haydn trivia question:
Which very famous Haydn Symphony is quoted in the development section of 60/(i)?

[richardfinegold]

It does appear somewhat unclear, though what is there to make of the comment in the "In the footsteps of Joseph Haydn" section:

"It is many years since a recording was made of all of Haydn's symphonies. And there has never been a complete recording of all the symphonies played on historic instruments."?

To me that at least implies that the recordings, if not all the concerts, in the project will use "historic instruments".

However, having now seen Richard's comment re. the instruments used by the Kammerorchester Basel, it looks more certain that the whole project will employ historic instruments.

Never a complete recording with historic instruments? I've got one on my shelves with the honors divided between Hogwood, Bruggen, and Octavio Somebody or Other. Perhaps they meant there was never 1 complete cycle by the same forces using Historical instruments?

[rauschwerk]

So did "Schmarrn" carry the meaning "rubbish" in Haydn's time, or is that a more recent evolution of its usage? I can see how he would have described Il Distratto as a mishmash, given its provenance, but could he really have been dismissing it as rubbish?

By 1803, when Haydn made that remark, Il distratto was apparently his most widely performed symphony. His former pupil Beethoven was at that time forging his reputation on far more substantial pieces. It has always irritated composers when works they don't themselves value become very popular.

[Tony Halstead]

What of Haydn's Symphony No.60, anyway?

For me it is a perfect, compressed 4-movement stürm und drang symphony with an especially shtoormy finale - but with two extra pieces tacked on. (Inadvisably, perhaps. ) The Lamentatione is very nice (shame it couldn't have come after the minuet in a 5-movement arch-form) , but the "joke" in the 6th movement soon wears thin - doesn't it? Tiresome, really.... or were we only meant to hear it once? Laugh and say - OK, what's 61 like then?

Listened to Rattle's CBSO recording of No. 60 (c/w...70) to prepare for the new Armonico/Antonini one.... goodness me. I mean, just WOW. Were they really THAT good? Yes, they were.
The remarkable level of tied-to-the-baton lightning response in the playing, the sheer agility in phrase and articulation, is astounding but - above all, it never compromises the sheer beauty of tone, strings most especially. One of this poignantly remembered partnership's best records, and on the 1991/5 CD, audiophile sound to match - spacious, delicate, such true pps....! Warwick Arts Centre (Woods/Hatch/Handley/Hughes) often comes across better than any Symphony Hall "tapings"....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-60-70-x/dp/B00000DNPM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1489457162&sr=8-2&keywords=Haydn+Rattle

More later on 60/70/2032 (I hope...), but - Haydn trivia question:
Which very famous Haydn Symphony is quoted in the development section of 60/(i)?

45 in f sharp: 'Farewell'.

[gurnemanz]

So did "Schmarrn" carry the meaning "rubbish" in Haydn's time, or is that a more recent evolution of its usage? I can see how he would have described Il Distratto as a mishmash, given its provenance, but could he really have been dismissing it as rubbish?

Good point, (maybe a slight parallel with the word "trifle", a trivial thing and also a dessert. Kaiserschmarren is a very popular dish to this day. I don't know when the idiomatic "nonsense" meaning came in. I spent a year in Bavaria and you would hear the word used in this sense very frequently. ("So a Schmarrn!" with a strong S. German trilled "r" is "What a load of rubbish!")

[Steerpike]

I think that somewhere in Robbins Landon the translation is "that old pancake", but I'm working from memory. This would fit with trivial and dessert.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Interesting - so he thought, with six movements, that the piece waffled on? (And the image of the Kaiserschmarren in the link gurnie provides looks not too dissimilar to an Eton Mess.)

[Bryn]

I think that somewhere in Robbins Landon the translation is "that old pancake", but I'm working from memory. This would fit with trivial and dessert.

Yes, but my understanding is that Kaiserschmarrn postdates Haydn's use of Schmarrn to describe the symphony. Back in earlier centuries it appears Schmarrn implied to smear or harm. I just wondered what stage of usage it had reached when Haydn employed it.

[MickyD]

My understanding is that the Kammerorchester Basel uses either "modern" or period instruments depending on the repertoire.

Thanks for that, Richard...it would have been odd to have had a mixture of modern and period instruments in a cycle such as this.

[teamsaint]

Interesting - so he thought, with six movements, that the piece waffled on? (And the image of the Kaiserschmarren in the link gurnie provides looks not too dissimilar to an Eton Mess.)

Sounds to me like he was trying something new so that his fans didnt desert him.

Anyway, #60 is keeping my spirits up on the way to a trade fair......

[Richard Barrett]

Yes, but my understanding is that Kaiserschmarrn postdates Haydn's use of Schmarrn to describe the symphony. Back in earlier centuries it appears Schmarrn implied to smear or harm.

I haven't seen that second meaning of it anywhere... while the Kaiser in Kaiserschmarrn is Franz Josef (1830-1916), Schmarrn (or Schmarren) as a dish had already existed for centuries in the southern German-speaking regions, as had its informal usage to mean "worthless stuff" or "nonsense".

[Bryn]

Never a complete recording with historic instruments? I've got one on my shelves with the honors divided between Hogwood, Bruggen, and Octavio Somebody or Other. Perhaps they meant there was never 1 complete cycle by the same forces using Historical instruments?

But though the Haydn 2032 project has just the one conductor, it has two different orchestras, so the lack of a complete survey by the same forces will remain the case. I got the Hogwood box (which I supplemented with the BBCMM cover disc of 76 and 77) when it was released, and was a bit miffed when fairly soon after the Hogwood/Brüggen/Dantone box made its appearance. However, if you favour Hogwood's approach, both boxes are required, since in the latter box, where recordings by both Hogwood and Brüggen exist, the Brüggen was chosen.

[Bryn]

I haven't seen that second meaning of it anywhere... while the Kaiser in Kaiserschmarrn is Franz Josef (1830-1916), Schmarrn (or Schmarren) as a dish had already existed for centuries in the southern German-speaking regions, as had its informal usage to mean "worthless stuff" or "nonsense".

See http://www.quick-german-recipes.com/kaiserschmarrn.html and search the page for "smear" or "pain". It is a recipe page, rather than an etymological authority, hence the "it appears". Elsewhere I see it claimed that Schmarrn stems from schmieren.

[french frank]

See http://www.quick-german-recipes.com/kaiserschmarrn.html and search the page for "smear" or "pain". It is a recipe page, rather than an etymological authority, hence the "it appears".

In the end, isn't the only query how Haydn intended it to be understood rather than how it could be understood? Modesty rather than dismissiveness?