La Tribune: Un BaL Français

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm not sure at what point the recordings chosen to be discussed are made known.
Are we going to place our own bets on what we think they should be, or wait to see what is said in each programme and then make comments?

They’re named as and when eliminated, leaving usually 2 or 3 for the final ‘listen-off’ … after which the critics nominate their podium placings and those remaining performances identified.

[Pulcinella]

All these "holding posts" seem a bit of an extravaganza, non?

Nicely witty, as ever, SA.
I wanted to launch each thread but have something like a sticky at the top (as I tend to do for the new BaL threads) where perhaps some introductory comments could be made, rather than having each thread potentially starting somewhat randomly.
In the BaL case, I've sometimes posted links to the score or Wiki articles (admittedly as the second post, after the Presto link to available recordings).
If they are pointless (now that Roger has kindly posted the programme links) then I'll happily delete them.
As ever, all suggestions welcome while we sort out what we really want.

[MickyD]

While this is certainly true, I don't feel in this case one needs an idiomatic translation. If it's accurate enough for the meaning to come over, that's fine. Here DeepL shows it's pretty good compared with Google Translate. If you grasp the meaning you make the necessary adjustments in your head.

I very much agree - we have come a long way with translation services in recent years. I remember absolute howlers in the past - many years ago, 'traffic jam' was rendered into 'confiture de voitures'!

I would like to thank Aunt Daisy for going to the trouble of comparing the various translation services - it made for fascinating reading for me. It also confirmed to me that DeepL is very impressive and I think that most people would certainly get the main gist of what was being said on the La Tribune summary.

Finally, I am so pleased that this new thread has been created, well done to all concerned. Even if you can't understand all that is being said in French, it is a reminder of just how R3 could (and should) be providing a similarly excellent quality programme.

[Roger Webb]

I remember absolute howlers in the past - many years ago, 'traffic jam' was rendered into 'confiture de voitures'!

.

Yes we've all been handed menus 'helpfully' translated into english - crème brûlée, which we all know and love, rendered as 'burnt cream'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

They're not made known beforehand, the three critics (and audience in the case of the live shows) listen blind as each section of a work is played - there are six recordings identified 'A' to 'F', after each extract has been played the critics comment on it and after example 'F' has been played two are voted off, and their identities are revealed. The remaining four are played again with a different section or movt. and then one more is voted off, and their identity revealed, leaving three. The final section has all three sampled with a different section or movt. with no discussion, and then all three are discussed and a final order established. After the order is arrived at, only then is the identity of the three finalists revealed.

It's a bit more entertaining than I've made it sound! It's Innocent Ear meets The apprentice!

So the prose that three AI bots sort of translated is a summary of the Tribune’s discussions. Their dissing of the Lipatti is a major crime in the Heldenleben household - one of the few pianists to make this overplayed work tolerable so maybe that has prejudiced me. Another is Solomon’s . The problem is often the excess of “fievre” (passion I would offer as better than fever). It’s so easy to produce an overblown performance which shows the works’s rickety flaws - not least in the over the top 1st movement cadenza - that can become laughable in the wrong hands.
Good slow movement though.

[french frank]

Finally, I am so pleased that this new thread has been created, well done to all concerned. Even if you can't understand all that is being said in French, it is a reminder of just how R3 could (and should) be providing a similarly excellent quality programme.

It also might be a telling point for the controller and his changes that such enthusiasm has been shown towards a new alternative to the displaced Building a Library.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It also might be a telling point for the controller and his changes that such enthusiasm has been shown towards a new alternative to the displaced Building a Library.

It’s more likely he’ll think it odd that we’re following a debat that most of us will only have a hazy understanding of or rely on shaky “I -think- get-the-gist” translations. There’s a parable in here somewhere but I can’t quite derive the moral. With the exception of French comedy is there any programming more difficult to follow than their intellectual discussion programmes ? And if you think British actors mumble try following Dix Pour Cent …

[MickyD]

I confess that very often the intellectual discussion programmes in France are tedious and sometimes lead me to switch over to Radio Classique just to hear some music! .And even panel shows in the entertainment slots on TV run for well over two hours at times, which is far too long . On the other hand, I cannot but admire the fact that the French do at least take the time to engage in mature conversation, something which I fear we have for the most part lost in the UK.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I confess that very often the intellectual discussion programmes in France are tedious and sometimes lead me to switch over to Radio Classique just to hear some music! .And even panel shows in the entertainment slots on TV run for well over two hours at times, which is far too long . On the other hand, I cannot but admire the fact that the French do at least take the time to engage in mature conversation, something which I fear we have for the most part lost in the UK.

Except here of course . Good point though .

[french frank]

It’s more likely he’ll think it odd that we’re following a debat that most of us will only have a hazy understanding of or rely on shaky “I -think- get-the-gist” translations.

Neither of us knows for sure what he will "think" but I'm inclined to give him a bit more acumen than you do. What the BBC privately knows and what the BBC publicly does are often, it seems to me, in conflict. As for a BBC management more likely to listen to Beyoncé than Beethoven they'll just be looking for the results of the general strategy moves.

[Roger Webb]

So the prose that three AI bots sort of translated is a summary of the Tribune’s discussions. Their dissing of the Lipatti is a major crime in the Heldenleben household - one of the few pianists to make this overplayed work tolerable so maybe that has prejudiced me. Another is Solomon’s . The problem is often the excess of “fievre” (passion I would offer as better than fever). It’s so easy to produce an overblown performance which shows the works’s rickety flaws - not least in the over the top 1st movement cadenza - that can become laughable in the wrong hands.
Good slow movement though.

But don't forget they're listening 'blind', so any charge that they might be prejudiced by any preconceptions won't stick. Nor that they are against 'historical' perfs on the grounds of imperfect sound quality; they often choose older (sometimes mono) recordings. Surprising that they don't recognise more recordings - I quite like this guessing game, and, like them, I do better on voices.

My choice in BaL rarely coincides with CD McG and his guest's - to me there are often glaring omissions.....most recently Daphnis and Chloe, and the one that was most
inexplicable: Peter Grimes - they didn't play Jon Vickers...or rather only a short orchestral excerpt from the Colin Davis, but none of the superb cast of this benchmark recording was played or considered!

[MickyD]

Except here of course . Good point though .

Ha ha, naturally! I will never forget the day when my French chimney sweep engaged in a full conversation with me about counter-tenors. Intellectualism is alive and well in France, and not only in the quarters you would expect!

[Expianoman]

So the prose that three AI bots sort of translated is a summary of the Tribune’s discussions. Their dissing of the Lipatti is a major crime in the Heldenleben household - one of the few pianists to make this overplayed work tolerable so maybe that has prejudiced me. Another is Solomon’s . The problem is often the excess of “fievre” (passion I would offer as better than fever). It’s so easy to produce an overblown performance which shows the works’s rickety flaws - not least in the over the top 1st movement cadenza - that can become laughable in the wrong hands.
Good slow movement though.

Yes, I found that they were more interested in "fire" and "passion" rather that lyricism which I have felt more appropriate in the Grieg. But that is exactly where I differ with many reviewers.

[Pulcinella]

We are wondering if there is sufficient interest in weekly programme threads to continue with them, as they require a fair bit of work from whoever starts and updates them, and in general there has not been much response.

Please let us have your thoughts.

[Roger Webb]

We are wondering if there is sufficient interest in weekly programme threads to continue with them, as they require a fair bit of work from whoever starts and updates them, and in general there has not been much response.

Please let us have your thoughts.

I'm quite willing to put up the appropriate pages as and when they appear on France Musique's website on this thread, rather than one specific to the work each week...strikes permitting! And of course I'll post the report page - usually Monday or Tuesday.

Having just one thread might perhaps encourage a general discussion and comparison with Tribune and BaL - my thought is that both are tucked away in the weekend afternoons' snooze zone and suffer consequently.

Next weeks Tribune is Schubert's 1st piano trio.