BaL 8.03.14 - Bernstein: West Side Story

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Seconded!

I like your references to Brahms, too, Roehre - Howard Goodall pointed out similarities to Carmen, and I would add Strauss: Rosenkavalier (the Presentation of the Silver Rose / when Tony first sees Maria at the Dance in the Gym) Zarathustra (the ending of both works) - and the quartet Bella Figlia Dell'Amore from Rigoletto on the layering in the Tonight Quintet. And Copland on the Act Two Ballet Sequence, of course. (All works Bernstein was eventually perform and record.)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

- not quite King Olaf, but I bet he was relieved when he compiled this week's list after the Beethoven #7 task.

YES!

[Barbirollians]

Apart from the "Classical or not" status (where is Rhapsody in Blue on that shape-shifting map?) the suggested similarity with Lord Lloyd Banker's score is grotesquely unfair. WSS is very clearly by a composer who could also produce the Jeremiah Symphony, The Age of Anxiety, the Serenade for Violin and Orchestra after Plato's "Symposium" - the Harvard and Curtis graduand whose doctoral thesis was on the potential of the American Musical Theatre as a medium for serious Musical activity - and the man who would go on to write and present the Young People's Concerts and the Norton Lectures.

WSS owes as much to the Western Classical traditions as it does to Broadway: the three-note motif that represents the Sharks in the Prelude, permutated to become that of "Ma-ri-a" (with octave displacement first presented in Something's Coming at the words "Who knows?"), permutated even further to become the subject of the "fugue" in Cool. The way Something's Coming "ends" with a dominant minor ninth chord on D (but in fourth inversion) - defying the tonality of D major and pulling it towards G major, a key which is only reached at the Cha-Cha during the Dance at the Gym - the moment when Tony first sees Maria and the "something good" that he knew was "coming" has "arrived" (the Cha-cha itself, of course, using a version of the melody of Maria, a number which we haven't yet). This is use of Music(al) thinking that only someone steeped in the Music of Bach and Brahms and Species Counterpoint could pull off so successfully.

That may be true but it is much more effective with musical theatre voices such as on the original cast recording . I have a sneaking affection for the DG Bernstein however due to the splendid playing in the dances and Gee Officer Krupke .

[Black Swan]

As an expat Yank. For years there was a huge discussion in the USA if Porgy and Bess was an Opera or a Musical. I hope this isn't where we are going with WSS.

[Petrushka]

As an expat Yank. For years there was a huge discussion in the USA if Porgy and Bess was an Opera or a Musical. I hope this isn't where we are going with WSS.

At the risk of provoking just such a discussion I'd say that both P & B and WSS are a peculiarly American blend of both.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That may be true but it is much more effective with musical theatre voices such as on the original cast recording .

Oh, I agree totally - it's the same with Die Dreigroschenoper, but both have impeccable "Classical" credentials.

I have a sneaking affection for the DG Bernstein however due to the splendid playing in the dances and Gee Officer Krupke .

The band on that recording is phenomenal - as are all the younger singers, and Horne's Somewhere - and Troyanos' Anita is great (but that's the best role in the cast). But Tony and Maria are just wrong, so terribly, terribly wrong!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For years there was a huge discussion in the USA if Porgy and Bess was an Opera or a Musical. I hope this isn't where we are going with WSS.

Oh, vigorous discussion of these matters are good fun, BS. FWiW, my six'a'pence worth opinion is that P&B is an Opera, and works bess with trained singers as part of an Opera House's "Season". WSS is a Musical, working best in a seven-evening-performances-and two-matinees productions with young Actors who are able to dance and sing well. And a much better cultural artefact than the opera A Quiet Place.

[waldo]

Oh, vigorous discussion of these matters are good fun, BS.

I agree. But I think it depends on your bringin' upke.......

[Black Swan]

I agree, vigorous debate is great. And I agree with
ferneyhoughgeliebt WSS is a musical, it has great music that is enhanced by the dance scenes which are also great. I think Porgy and Bess is an Opera.

[teamsaint]

I agree, vigorous debate is great. And I agree with
ferneyhoughgeliebt WSS is a musical, it has great music that is enhanced by the dance scenes which are also great. I think Porgy and Bess is an Opera.

Fair comment.

FoR3 forum debates, comes to correct conclusion, and the recitative is history.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And I've been waiting for someone to complain about the omission of Natalie Wood on the film soundtrack recording. But obviously I under-estimated the knowledge of forumites.

[Black Swan]

Good point, not all know that much of the singing in American musicals were dubbed.

[amateur51]

Oh, I agree totally - it's the same with Die Dreigroschenoper, but both have impeccable "Classical" credentials.


The band on that recording is phenomenal - as are all the younger singers, and Horne's Somewhere - and Troyanos' Anita is great (but that's the best role in the cast). But Tony and Maria are just wrong, so terribly, terribly wrong!

So who chose them? Was Bernstein guilty or was he over-ruled? He was one big hissy-fit all the way through that recording if the film is representative. Oh lordy, I can just hear Edward Seckerson making a big meal of this.

[waldo]

So who chose them? Was Bernstein guilty or was he over-ruled? He was one big hissy-fit all the way through that recording if the film is representative.

I don't know, but I am fairly sure it was Bernstein. In interview, he said he wanted to see how his musical would stand up if it was given the full operatic treatment. So even if he didn't have final say on every member of the cast, it does appear to have been his idea to have "real" singers instead of musical ones.

It was all part of a drive to prove (to himself, as much as anyone else) that he was an important composer and not just a conductor. Increasingly insecure about his relative lack of compositions and his dwindling reputation, he was constantly plagued by the feeling that time was running out. He kept telling everyone - even people he hardly knew - that he was about to give up conducting so he could focus on his composing, but it never happened. He lost the urge, I suppose, and never quite got it back. Anyhow, the operatic treatment was, I believe, an attempt to prop up his diminishing self-confidence. It looked as if he had written a musical, but in actual fact, he had written an operatic masterpiece - or so he must have hoped.......

[amateur51]

I don't know, but I am fairly sure it was Bernstein. In interview, he said he wanted to see how his musical would stand up if it was given the full operatic treatment. So even if he didn't have final say on every member of the cast, it does appear to have been his idea to have "real" singers instead of musical ones.

It was all part of a drive to prove (to himself, as much as anyone else) that he was an important composer and not just a conductor. Increasingly insecure about his relative lack of compositions and his dwindling reputation, he was constantly plagued by the feeling that time was running out. He kept telling everyone - even people he hardly knew - that he was about to give up conducting so he could focus on his composing, but it never happened. He lost the urge, I suppose, and never quite got it back. Anyhow, the operatic treatment was, I believe, an attempt to prop up his diminishing self-confidence. It looked as if he had written a musical, but in actual fact, he had written an operatic masterpiece - or so he must have hoped.......

Thanks waldo!