BaL 22.02.14 - Haydn: Symphony no. 44

[richardfinegold]

Fischer's performance is very refined, but somewhat lacking in Haydn's trademark nervous energy. Pinnock has plenty of that, but I do regret his decision not to make the second half repeat in the finale.

Scherchen is just hopeless. Where does one start? Where the heck are those crucial sforzati at (for example) bars 52-55 of the finale? This sounds like a first run through with an orchestra of indifferent sight-readers! Changing the order of movements is an act of outrageous vandalism.

You've just reminded me that I have a Pinnock collection of the "Sturm und Drang" Symphonies. I'll have to do a comparison with the Fischer. I do enjoy the Fischer recording, especially the slow movement.
It is unusual for Haydn to have a slow movement as the 3rd movement of a work. I'm sure that there are other examples in his vast catalogue of works, but I can't think of one offhand.

[waldo]

I just wish there was some way of digitally extirpating the Pinnock harpsichord. I am not saying it is wrong to use a harpsichord, but it is very, very prominent. Otherwise, they are terrific recordings and would be front-runners for me.

[verismissimo]

...
It is unusual for Haydn to have a slow movement as the 3rd movement of a work. I'm sure that there are other examples in his vast catalogue of works, but I can't think of one offhand.

15, 32, 37, 68 and B.

[Roehre]

15, 32, 37, 68 and B.

Only to stick to the symphonies here

[verismissimo]

Only to stick to the symphonies here

True. True.

[richardfinegold]

You've just reminded me that I have a Pinnock collection of the "Sturm und Drang" Symphonies. I'll have to do a comparison with the Fischer. I do enjoy the Fischer recording, especially the slow movement.
It is unusual for Haydn to have a slow movement as the 3rd movement of a work. I'm sure that there are other examples in his vast catalogue of works, but I can't think of one offhand.

Had a quick listen to the Pinnock. I will be listening further in the next few days but I have a couple of quick observations

1) There is a lot more "nervous energy" here to the point where the music begins to remind me of C.P.E. Bach.
2) There period instruments do bring out a lot of the contrasts in the music; particularly the horns and the winds.
3) I don't find the harpsichord at all obtrusive
4) I give Fischer the edge in the slow movement, where the beautiful playing on modern instruments succeeds better in bringing out the pathos of the movement. Since this movement is what really gives the Symphony it's niche, and helps differentiate it from the other symphonies of the Strum and Drang period, I suspect it is the Fischer recording that I will play
more through time, but I am glad to have the Pinnock set.

[Tony Halstead]

There used to be a DG LP of it coupled with Symphony 49, very elegantly and suavely played / interpreted by the ECO under Daniel Barenboim, with a rather too slow 3rd movement.

I don't think it and its companion LPs ( Symphs 45,46,47 and 48) ever made it onto CD.
The wonderful no. 46 in B minor/ major loses much of its potential charm and visceral excitement because of the conductor's decision to ask the horn players to play their very high 'B alto' parts an octave too low ( most of the time but not all the time!)

[waldo]

Another one for the list?

Oprheus Chamber Orchestra.

Looks to be available as a new CD........

[jayne lee wilson]

Do you always react like this when someone disagrees with you?

I only said I thought it was awful. Isn't that allowed? I did think it was awful. Absurd, actually. At least I took the time to follow your "intelligent" recommendation and listen.

What do you want? A musicological treatise to justify my final judgement?

As for Bruggen (you mentioned him, not me; I merely said HIP), I think you must have been looking at overall timings for movements. In actual fact, if you measure the tempo, he is TWICE the speed of Scherchen. Howgood is even faster again: almost THREE times the speed. For most mortals, that's "pacy" - at least in comparative terms.

Maybe take a look at post no.6 ?
But my comment about Bruggen was in relation to other, overdriven HIPPS performances, not Scherchen. In any case, they are remarkably similar in the minuet. Try starting them off a few seconds apart...

Sorry if you felt I overreacted, but I was worried someone might take a quick listen to a thinned-out mp3 somewhere, sample the adagio, and just dismiss the Scherchen out-of-hand. I feel it is a remarkable performance, and yes, it's very sui generis. But his moderate tempi for the outer movements, finale especially, are part of a carefully-crafted view of the work - very dark and tragic - which makes sense of that amazing adagio as long as you hear it in context. It's a great shame that you have to aquire the box (The 1950s Haydn Symphony Recordings, DG) to hear it at its best. But Scherchen's 44th really needs swallowing whole and it is a revelatory collection to live with.

Discussion of classical symphonies often majors on degrees of HIPPS (I almost always prefer such recordings myself), and those visionary mavericks, the rare recreative conductors who have their very individual view, can often seem to be irrelevant. This may be unavoidable now, but Scherchen is too fascinating an artist to overlook, and what he does with Haydn is often uniquely compelling.

[waldo]

Fair enough, Jayne. I did exactly what you feared: I gave it a quick listen and made a snap judgement. But your advocacy is compelling: I will listen properly this time.

(Incidentally, I don't usually have the time to post on this forum - this is a very brief holiday, nearly over - but I do read it on a fairly frequent basis and I have often enjoyed your illuminating comments.)

[jayne lee wilson]

Fair enough, Jayne. I did exactly what you feared: I gave it a quick listen and made a snap judgement. But your advocacy is compelling: I will listen properly this time.

(Incidentally, I don't usually have the time to post on this forum - this is a very brief holiday, nearly over - but I do read it on a fairly frequent basis and I have often enjoyed your illuminating comments.)

OK Waldo, if you listen properly you're allowed to hate it properly afterwards if you want....

[HighlandDougie]

If anyone is interested in listening to Scherchen, you can access it easily via this British Library web-page:

http://sounds.bl.uk/Classical-music/Haydn

Click on Symphony No 44 and you then have a choice of four recordings, including Scherchen. The transcription is taken from an LP so is not as good sonically as the CD transfer in the DG box but it's perfectly acceptable, as is the Fricsay.

[verismissimo]

Oh, I like that English Concert / Pinnock!

[MickyD]

Much as I adore Hogwood's work, I agree with NK in his assessment that his rendition of this symphony is too safe. As I said in earlier post, we still need the likes of Concerto Koln to record this symphony and give it the excitement it really needs.

[Thropplenoggin]

Ye gods, for one moment then, I thought he'd said Jos van Immerseel and his Enema Eterna!

Badinage aside, this was a masterful BaL...nearly an hour's worth of thorough, thoughtful exegesis of the work packed full of musicological insights and backed up with a diverse array of musical samples, acknowleding old thinking on Haydn and the harpsichord continuo issue. He proved the case for Pinnock's worthiness admirably. Who could ask for more?