BaL 4.01.14 - Schumann's Symphony no. 1 in B flat "Spring"

[verismissimo]

I've had the Tonhalle/Zinman set of Schumann symphonies for a few months and wasn't a bit surprised that it was the "winner".

I find the Karajan quite hard to take now, but like Solti with the Vienna Phil, which I don't think was mentioned.

Enjoyed the BAL!

[Roehre]

:

That's the Friedrich painting I meant - in the 1970s adorning the 3LP set with the four symphonies together

[MickyD]

It reminds me of my bitter disappointment when I finally got to go to the old art gallery in Berlin to see their collection of Friedrichs...to my dismay, I was told that the room housing them all was closed for redecoration!

[jayne lee wilson]

Roaming around the Gramophone archive I noticed the affection for Kubelik's Berlin Cycle (which I haven't heard for ages), but a fair bit of criticism for the BRSO one... but Rob Cowan seems to love them both and is articulate about that fondness... so I was delighted to discover some Japanese Specials were available... the SHM-CD of the Berlin Spring arrived today allowing direct comparison with the Originals issue; the others are on their way from Tokyo, including a Blu-Spec CD of BRSO 3 & 4. These do come in for some critical flak for their sound alone, but when last I compared SBKs to Blu-Specs (Salonen's Canyons aux Etoiles) the improvement was spectacular.

The truth is out there and it's in Japan. So we'll see..!

[Barbirollians]

Roaming around the Gramophone archive I noticed the affection for Kubelik's Berlin Cycle (which I haven't heard for ages), but a fair bit of criticism for the BRSO one... but Rob Cowan seems to love them both and is articulate about that fondness... so I was delighted to discover some Japanese Specials were available... the SHM-CD of the Berlin Spring arrived today allowing direct comparison with the Originals issue; the others are on their way from Tokyo, including a Blu-Spec CD of BRSO 3 & 4. These do come in for some critical flak for their sound alone, but when last I compared SBKs to Blu-Specs (Salonen's Canyons aux Etoiles) the improvement was spectacular.

The truth is out there and it's in Japan. So we'll see..!

I look forward to your report on the Japanese pressing of the Spring Symphony.

[richardfinegold]

Roaming around the Gramophone archive I noticed the affection for Kubelik's Berlin Cycle (which I haven't heard for ages), but a fair bit of criticism for the BRSO one... but Rob Cowan seems to love them both and is articulate about that fondness... so I was delighted to discover some Japanese Specials were available... the SHM-CD of the Berlin Spring arrived today allowing direct comparison with the Originals issue; the others are on their way from Tokyo, including a Blu-Spec CD of BRSO 3 & 4. These do come in for some critical flak for their sound alone, but when last I compared SBKs to Blu-Specs (Salonen's Canyons aux Etoiles) the improvement was spectacular.


The truth is out there and it's in Japan. So we'll see..!

A couple of observations on this:
1) I am surprised to see Sawallisch so extravagantly praised here. I haven't heard his Schumann, but the rest of his recorded output, and the concerts that I attended when he led the Philadelphia Orchestra, never led me to expect anything revelatory from him. I'll have to check out Spotify and see if his Schumann is featured.
2) I have two Blu Spec recordings--Walter/NY Phil Mahler/2 and Lovro von Matacic in Bruckner/8 with the NHK Orchestra. I own both of these recordings in conventional formats as well. I am not sure if they justify their hype. The Mahler is remastered at a much louder level than the various CD remasterings that I have heard and makes any comparison difficult. The Bruckner, IMO, sounds better in conventional Red Book. Given the extreme pricing of these discs, I would avoid the technology for now.
3) I just received the Dausgard Schumann cycle and m very impressed. The smaller forces and clear Bis DSD SACDs render the Orchestration much more transparent. This now my favorite cycle, but I will not part with Karajan and Szell either..

[jayne lee wilson]

The Sawallisch is an exception, rfg (even if it is a bit Brucknerian!), a true classic of the Gramophone... do you have the archive? Looking through its various reviews/comparisons puts it in perspective... it is an especially fine recording, at least from the GROC or Toshiba. It's a shame about Blu- and SHMs, some are excellent but they rather muddied the waters around the remasters. The magic words to look for on the back of any Toshibas are "remastered by Yoshio Okazaki". This is on the complete Toshiba Sawallisch set (13-555/6, 2005) but I've just noticed that the single issues (1/2, 3/4) seem to have 90- numbers in Tokyo now, so who knows... look on the back if you get one. Almost any 13- or 14- numbered Toshibas are worth seeking out...

[richardfinegold]

The Sawallisch is an exception, rfg (even if it is a bit Brucknerian!), a true classic of the Gramophone... do you have the archive? Looking through its various reviews/comparisons puts it in perspective... it is an especially fine recording, at least from the GROC or Toshiba. It's a shame about Blu- and SHMs, some are excellent but they rather muddied the waters around the remasters. The magic words to look for on the back of any Toshibas are "remastered by Yoshio Okazaki". This is on the complete Toshiba Sawallisch set (13-555/6, 2005) but I've just noticed that the single issues (1/2, 3/4) seem to have 90- numbers in Tokyo now, so who knows... look on the back if you get one. Almost any 13- or 14- numbered Toshibas are worth seeking out...

From where do you purchase your Blu Specs, jlw? Are you fortunate enough to have a brick and mortar store that sells them? My only source is Amazon, and I'm afraid they don't offer that much detail, but I do appreciate the information.
I don't have the Gramophone Archive, and as per many discussions on this forum I have not taken the magazine seriously for many years, although I have seen your endorsement in the Forum for the new editorship. My principal sources of reviews is the American bi monthly Fanfare, and I don't recall ever seeing the Sawallisch touted there, although they also have an on line archive which I may consult.

[richardfinegold]

I just consulted the Fanfare Archive, reviewing a reissue of Sawallisch in 2002. The review is a rave, but it also mentions that these were not available on CD in the States prior to that date, which in general confirms their lower profile over here.
Also, the Blu Specs are not available on Amazon ,although Kubelik is (3/4).

[jayne lee wilson]

Most of my Japanese discs came direct from HMV Japan, and most are what I tend to think of as "classic" Toshiba-EMI remasters by the aforementioned Okazaki, with 5-figure serial nos. starting 13 or 14, issued after about 2005. You see them on Amazon occasionally for a bizarre range of prices. Blu-spec, SHMs and "HI-Quality" CDs may well have been remastered too, but unless your Japanese is better than mine it's hard to know from the disc itself. They do often sound as if they have, but I've very few of them.
The UK rule for Customs, btw, is to charge you VAT for anything over £18 - but they don't always bother for smaller packages. The wicked bit is the Parcelforce admin charge of a further £14 or more! If you see "awaiting presentation to customs commissioner" on the tracking page your heart sinks as they sit on it for 5 days... then you have to phone and pay. Tokyo - Coventry, 2 days; Coventry - Liverpool, 7 at least... restricting orders to 2 CDs usually gets away with it.

The current Sawallisch issues 1/2, 3/4 are described as "Hi-Quality CD" on HMV Japan now with those different numbers, so maybe Caliban can say more when his arrive...

I played Dausgaard's Rhenish early this morning (CD layer) - it's utterly fresh and really wonderful!

[jayne lee wilson]

So the SHMCD of Kubelik's Schumann 1 and 2 arrived. Starting with 2(ii), I was very pleased at the DG Originals sound. Fresh and lively, belying it's 50 years. Switching to the SHM showed a smoother upper range and a "calmer" sound generally: a little more 3D space and better differentiated detail in woodwinds etc. In the adagio, there was a little more acoustic atmosphere perceivable, strings a little smoother and richer. But it was a small difference on a highly resolved system and the mastering sounds the same - you feel you're seeing the same picture through a slightly bigger clearer window. If you're happy with the DG Originals there's no need to rush off to HMV Japan or wherever.

But I didn't find the performances terribly engaging. After the more individualised, characterful and flexibly expressive readings from Harnoncourt, Dausgaard et al, there's a homogenised, standard-classical orchestral sound to this Berlin Phil vintage "63/64 which sounds too predictable to me as the symphony progresses. I always feel I know what's coming next. To hear this orchestra playing Brahms or Beethoven won't sound identical, no, but if won't be very differentiated either.

Trying the Larghetto of NO.1 in Zinman's recording, you're immediately aware of a greater range of expression in mood, pace and orchestral colour. More nuanced, much more engaging. The Kubelik is beautifully balanced (no problems with the orchestration there...) and well-recorded, but for me, later conductors have connected more keenly with the essence of Schumann - those ever-changing moods.

By all accounts, Kubelik had a special feeling for the Rhenish. When the Japanese versions of 3&4 with the BRSO get here maybe that will give me a more positive view of Kubelik's approach.
As I read around Gramophone Schumann reviews going back to the 1950s, I was amused at how I found writers "complaining about those who complain about" Schumann's orchestration rather than complaining about it themselves... "Who are The Great Invisible Complainers?" I wondered...
Evidently before my time...

[Nick Armstrong]

Oh dear... I bought the DG Originals Kubelik Schumann some while ago and (as reported in a post some months/years ago which for some reason the advanced search can't find) I sent it back, I found the sound really rebarbative and knew I wouldn't want to live with it...

[Nick Armstrong]

The Sawallisch is an exception, rfg ...a true classic of the Gramophone...

The magic words to look for on the back of any Toshibas are "remastered by Yoshio Okazaki". This is on the complete Toshiba Sawallisch set (13-555/6, 2005) but I've just noticed that the single issues (1/2, 3/4) seem to have 90- numbers in Tokyo now, so who knows... look on the back if you get one. Almost any 13- or 14- numbered Toshibas are worth seeking out...

Most of my Japanese discs came direct from HMV Japan, and most are what I tend to think of as "classic" Toshiba-EMI remasters by the aforementioned Okazaki, with 5-figure serial nos. starting 13 or 14, issued after about 2005. The current Sawallisch issues 1/2, 3/4 are described as "Hi-Quality CD" on HMV Japan now with those different numbers, so maybe Caliban can say more when his arrives...

My copy is even now in my hot little hand - yes, number 91008, with sound recording copyright (the circled 'p') 2010 - and does indeed contain the magic words in the insert: "Remastering Engineer: Yoshio Okazaki"

Can't wait to play it...

But first: LPO/Jurowski in Mahler 6 live over the river...!



PS: Jayne - do you have a link to a site where one can browse all those Japanese EMI remastings by Okazaki-San? (I can only find a redirect to an impenetrable Japanese 'Universal' site....)

[jayne lee wilson]

Try this: go to HMV Japan http://www.hmv.co.jp/en click on "classical" in the dropdown and put "imporco" into the search box**. Then scroll down the left side of the page and you'll see Toshiba-emi among other Japanese classical specials. Do bear in mind that Okazaki's work can be very warts-and-all, but usually worthwhile. (One to avoid - Giulini's Firebird etc. in Chicago (awful compression). Jochum's Dresden Bruckner 8 was indeed more revealing than the emi box here, but also revealed obvious dynamic limiting on the original tape in some climaxes). One of the best: Michelangeli's Ravel in G/Rach 4 (toce 14178). But it is harder now you have to choose from Blu-spec, SHM and "HIQuality CD". The latter appear to be the successors to the 13- and 14- ones. With brief experience of them, Blu-specs seem very good (Salonen's Canyons aux Etoiles is stunning!), SHM marginal improvements at best.

**It amuses me to realise I have no idea how I found this out... just poking around or something...

[Barbirollians]

It is all a question of taste I suppose . I still find KUbelik's the most springlike of all Spring Symphonies perhaps because it was my first recording of the piece . Zinman sounds like a run through to me . Looking forward to the Dausgaard though which I have just got round to ordering.