BaL 4.01.14 - Schumann's Symphony no. 1 in B flat "Spring"

[Barbirollians]

There is nothing the slightest bit stodgy about Kubelik in either recording or Sawallisch . I look forward to hearing the Dausgaard . I really enjoyed his Beethoven 9.

[Roehre]

There is nothing the slightest bit stodgy about Kubelik in either recording or Sawallisch . ....

I definitely concur with Barbirollians here (though I prefer Kubelik's DGG recordings to the later "Sony" ones)

[Nick Armstrong]

Having found many of his Beethoven and Mahler recordings very worthwhile (others, especially the later Mahler symphonies decidedly less so), I have taken the plunge an ordered his Schumann set via the amazon.co.uk marketplace.

Which set is that...? I'm missing a link with an earlier post, perhaps, as to which conductor you mean...

[Barbirollians]

Zinman I think Caliban .

I have listened to the BAL now . I loved that Bernstein NYPO excerpt ! at the other end of the spectrum the Dausgaard sounded much more interesting than the Zinman !

What was quite bizarre was that she felt she ought to choose Zinman although theSawallisch suffers from none of the muddy orchestral sound that she criticises other full symphony accounts for . The illustration from the finale showed the Sawallisch to be much more interesting and just as exciting and the skate over the surface approach that characterises the Zinman performance to my ears..

It was generally a good BAL but the failure to consider the non-stodgy Kubelik accounts was a disappointment . The DG to me remains the springiest of all. The Furtwangler was evidently considered beyond the pale.

If I was tempted to add any after that I should say the Dausgaard.

[jayne lee wilson]

The effect of trying to judge performances by excerpts can be wicked, n'est-ce pas ?

I played the Zinman Spring (bought with the cycle in 2004) at about 0800 today. "Wow! That will DO!" I said aloud at the end. Gosh, it's not bad is it?
There's no lack of lyricism, or power or richness here (gorgeous string tone in the Tonhalle), just a sharpening of rhythms and articulation generally, a refreshing of textures; greater contrasts between the songful and the dynamic - a lovely sparkling, open feeling to it all. No wonder Erica Jeal chose it.
I played it straight after Harnoncourt's 1841 4th, so lean, crisp and startling it made the Zinman seem quite large-scale. NH may seem at his most capricious throughout his cycle, but it's the kind of caprice that makes you smile as you shake your head... It's just too much fun not to listen to it! And at least as well recorded as Zinman or Dausgaard.
(By the way, with the Zinman - if you admired his Beethoven 1-4, or the Piano Concertos with Bronfman - that's the tonal palette and musical approach you're getting).

If, FHG, you haven't heard Sawallisch in a while, do remember it has been remastered for EMI GROCS. Having lived with the Studio, the Groc and the Toshiba masterings, I can say that each is better than the last and a great improvement over the Studio issue. And yet - despite my admiration for it, it still sounds just a little too large and overdriven sometimes, especially in the allegros, missing some song and fantasy... and this is where I think the later, lighter versions have changed our view of Schumann, relating him less to those "heavyweights" LvB and Brahms, bringing out the strong feminine side of his inspiration, closer to Mendelssohn or the witty and playful Berwald - but still - of course - a great composer.

Of the old school I far prefer Sawallisch to any other; I just tried the finale of No.1 in the Toshiba issue... simply magnificent, with those Lukaskirche resonances so much clearer than the other issues. If you can find it buy it! (Friedrich's "Grosse Gehege bei Dresden" on the front, a mini-repro from the LP set). Glorious cycle, yes, but it still reminds me a little too much of Bruckner! I recall a critic's comment on the LSO playing an early Mozart symphony back-in-the-day: "this great Rolls-Royce of an orchestra, swinging round the country lanes and never once scratching its paint".

(A few Gramophone references: Zinman/Tonhalle, Barenboim/Berlin S., 5/2004. Kubelik/Bavaria 10/79. Barenboim/CSO 8/79. Harnoncourt/Barenboim/Vonk etc 11/96. Make a coffee, give yourself some time...)

[Roehre]

..... If you can find it buy it! (Friedrich's "Grosse Gehege bei Dresden" on the front, a mini-repro from the LP set). .....

It's a brilliant picture, a purplish sunset (or dawn), which did attract me in 1973 and made me decide to go for Sawallisch i.s.o the then also new Karajan on DGG (in those days of even more resticted financial resources )

[jayne lee wilson]

That Friedrich's done some service - it's also on the Neumann Leipzig Mahler 7 on Berlin Classics apparently closer to the original with a brighter, more engaging yellowish tint. ( And I'm sure I've seen it on another cover elsewhere....)

[Barbirollians]

I got the DG BPO Kubelik out this afternoon . A wonderful performance albeit I accept that the sound is drier than on the LP . The Berlin Philharmonic play with a terrific lightness of touch there is no need for reduced forces when you have that orchestra being conducted by Kubelik - not the slightest hint of stodge. Indeed , this recording for me completely undermines Ms Jeal's premise and I regard it as an unfair dig at Schumann to suggest that a chamber orchestra is needed to show his orchestration to best effect . The problem is with performers not with Schumann.

[ardcarp]

The problem is with performers not with Schumann.

Schumann scored stuff the way he wanted it (presumably) so, agreed, we need to hear it that way. Looking at it from a technical point of view, he is still orchestrating in a 'Beethovenian' way. Mendelssohn was much more adventurous, particularly in his use of woodwind, and IMV was something of an innovator with regard to orchestral 'colour'.

[Nick Armstrong]

Having lived with the Studio, the Groc and the Toshiba masterings, I can say that each is better than the last and a great improvement over the Studio issue. ...

Of the old school I far prefer Sawallisch to any other; I just tried the finale of No.1 in the Toshiba issue... simply magnificent, with those Lukaskirche resonances so much clearer than the other issues. If you can find it buy it! (Friedrich's "Grosse Gehege bei Dresden" on the front, a mini-repro from the LP set).

Well I for one have followed that advice - I didn't know about the Toshiba remasterings, and have invested in Symphs 1 & 2 separately (better value than the very sought-after box, it seems):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003VPMEK0/ref=pe_385721_37038051_TE_3p_dp_1

Hitherto, I've only ever had this one:



Not sure where that fits on your scale, jlw (I suspect just the original 'Studio' mastering)...

Anyway, looking forward to hearing what I think of my new purchase

[visualnickmos]

Interesting that before the BaL was broadcast, opinions of Bernstein's recordings (NYPO and VPO) were generally quite highly lauded, but after the reviewer criticised the slow movement for being Largo, in the NYPO version (which I personally find fits totally within the framework of the recording; I IMVHO enjoy it) people are now saying "oh that dreadful slow movement" I am not quoting verbatim, but you get the general jist.

Funny how sometimes just a small point of view from a reviewer on one aspect can somehow seem to sway opinions...... just my observations, that's all.

[Barbirollians]

Interesting that before the BaL was broadcast, opinions of Bernstein's recordings (NYPO and VPO) were generally quite highly lauded, but after the reviewer criticised the slow movement for being Largo, in the NYPO version (which I personally find fits totally within the framework of the recording; I IMVHO enjoy it) people are now saying "oh that dreadful slow movement" I am not quoting verbatim, but you get the general jist.

Funny how sometimes just a small point of view from a reviewer on one aspect can somehow seem to sway opinions...... just my observations, that's all.

I thought it was wonderful VN ! Shame only available in an enormous box set .

[Nick Armstrong]

people are now saying "oh that dreadful slow movement"

...but are they the same people as said something different earlier?

I'd never heard or considered Bernstein in Schumann before; the slow movement extract did sound awful to my ears in isolation - though I accept that context can be all, and as jlw says above, extracts can be a mean way to judge a performance.

Likewise, (or rather, on the other hand) I've occasionally in the past been seduced by extracts from nippier, trimmer, cleaner versions of a work which can sound gripping in a short extract but then perfunctory and silly heard in context (I've send a few CDs back to amazon after hasty post-BAL purchases for that reason). I suspect I'm not going to get the Zinman - I think it may be in that category.

[visualnickmos]

.....Likewise, (or rather, on the other hand) I've occasionally in the past been seduced by extracts from nippier, trimmer, cleaner versions of a work which can sound gripping in a short extract but then perfunctory and silly heard in context (I've send a few CDs back to amazon after hasty post-BAL purchases for that reason). I suspect I'm not going to get the Zinman - I think it may be in that category.

Hello Caliban,
You've hit the nail on the head. What you have written is exactly what it boils down to in the end. BaL can be many things to many listeners; in my case it is a guide, in that often the very things a reviewer finds worthy, are the very same things that may well make me steer clear.... With you on the Zinman.

[BBMmk2]

I have certainly found this also, with the results of the accolade being rather strange choice.