BaL 2.11.13 - Brahms Piano Concerto no. 1 in D minor

[BeethovensQuill]

I actually think BAL's are far too long, id rather hear more reviews of new CD's. Id be happier if the BAL reviewer just picked there 2 or 3 prefered recordings and then spoke about about them for no more than 20mins.

Don't get me wrong i do enjoy BAL but im much more interested in new releases. Maybe BAL could be an hour long program on its own since it seems to be so popular.

[Alison]

Staggered as we are by the virtuosity of many a pianist today, it's not difficult to conclude that very few have truly penetrated to the heart of this great concerto. I rather like that in a way.

[Hornspieler]

Staggered as we are by the virtuosity of many a pianist today, it's not difficult to conclude that very few have truly penetrated to the heart of this great concerto. I rather like that in a way.

I think that is true of musicians in general, Alison.

They may be more dextrous and accurate than their forebears, but that ability to put a lump in the listener's throat and bring a tear to the eye seems, like much in modern life, to be missing from present day performers - soloists, orchestral players and (dare I say it?) composers.

HS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Staggered as we are by the virtuosity of many a pianist today, it's not difficult to conclude that very few have truly penetrated to the heart of this great concerto.

Wasn't that also true yesterday, the day before and last Wednesday week, Alison? And what about its considerable brain? (And who decides what is a "true" penetration as opposed to a fake one?)

I rather like that in a way.

Interesting - is this because you like the idea of a work that confounds its performers?

[salymap]

I think ferney is right. Fashions change, in music as in other things and we all grow up [and older] building on the composers and performers that formed our tastes when we first heard them.

[verismissimo]

I think ferney is right. Fashions change, in music as in other things and we all grow up [and older] building on the composers and performers that formed our tastes when we first heard them.

I think salymap is right.

[seabright]

has any one heard, or does any one have a good word for, the versions by Barenboim? the no further reference was verging on an insult or imbroglio of bad feeling ....

Barenboim 1991 Munich Phil Celibidache

Arrau Concergebouw Haitink

Kempf Staatskapelle Dresden - Franz Konwitschny.

and my thanks for the correct quotation, far more telling than my paraphrase; the impatience of anger ... mea culpa

I was pleased at your You Tube links because I find that collectors of a certain age seem to be oblivious to what treasures are on there, whether purely audio with still photos, or live videos of TV transmissions and the like. Tap "Brahms Piano Conerto No. 1" in the search field at the top and you get "about 771,000 results"!

Heading the list on the first screen are complete live videos of (1) Emmanuel Ax and Haitink at the 2011 Proms; (2) Barenboim and Celibidache in 1991, as per your own link above; (3) Zimerman and Bernstein with the VPO in 1984 (stunning!); (4) Rubinstein and Haitink in the Concertgebouw in 1973); (5) Dimitris Sgouros and Uros Lajovic and the Slovenian State Symphony, under which the viewers' comments consist of words like "great" and "phenomenal"; and (6) Pollini with Christian Thieleman in Dresden. If you have your computer linked to your TV with an HDMI lead then you'll be in for a treat with this lot!

[umslopogaas]

#73 Calum da Jazbo, the 2010 Penguin Guide rates Barenboim and Barbirolli from the late 1960s as one of the best recordings, but doesnt mention the version conducted by Celibidache.

[LaurieWatt]

It seemed to me however that her basic approach wasn't a bad one, which was that the music is that of a man in his mid-twenties; and that the (fascinating) extracts from Backhaus's performance give one some sort of direct 'line-in' to how the piece was approached by early performers including the composer.

I'll try and hear the 'winner' on Monday but it didn't excite me when it came out. The excerpts from Curzon's and Fleischer's performances didn't immediately float HMS Caliban either....

However, the interesting avenues for exploration, for me, were Serkin/Szell and Bishop/Davis

I love this concerto and had not heard this recording. I have, as I write, been listening to the first movement which has just moved on to the second. However, I found the first movement very soft grained - not a young man's conception at all - and was not listening very hard until there was quite a big rall about ten minutes or so back and became alert as the orchestra seemed to stretch itself to the point of .. ouch.. not being together as they eased up the tempo, God forbid... I will hang in though in the hope of something better...so far not impressed!

[Zucchini]

...but doesnt mention the version conducted by Celibidache.

I have the Barenboim/Celibidache Teldec VHS of the 2 concertos & vaguely recall that CD rights were not granted at the time - maybe DB & Celi were contracted to different labels. DB is given plenty of freedom. Excellent live performances.

[silvestrione]

#73 Calum da Jazbo, the 2010 Penguin Guide rates Barenboim and Barbirolli from the late 1960s as one of the best recordings, but doesnt mention the version conducted by Celibidache.

Barenboim/Barbirolli has always been one of my favourite recordings of anything (purchased the LP when it came out in later 60s), except for a period when I convinced myself that what I perceived to be too much emotion (in any kind of art) was self-indulgent. Now I am back to loving its youthful ardour, and, forget tempo, which is not necessarily much to do with it, if you want a youthful performance in tune with the tumult of feeling young Brahms put into the work, you won't be disappointed with this one, with the young pre-conducting Barenboim at his peak as a pianist, the very young Barbirolli (!) matching or exceeding him in emotional identification, and the Philharmonia obviously stirred and excited by the sense of occasion. The strings in the slow movement are balm for the soul.

If, on the other hand, you want a version that brings out the symphonic qualities, Pollini/Bohm or Arrau/Guilini.

(I love the Chailly/Gewandhaus in Brahms, but don't see Freire as a large enough pianistic personality).

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

I was pleased at your You Tube links because I find that collectors of a certain age seem to be oblivious to what treasures are on there, whether purely audio with still photos, or live videos of TV transmissions and the like. Tap "Brahms Piano Conerto No. 1" in the search field at the top and you get "about 771,000 results"!

Heading the list on the first screen are complete live videos of (1) Emmanuel Ax and Haitink at the 2011 Proms; (2) Barenboim and Celibidache in 1991, as per your own link above; (3) Zimerman and Bernstein with the VPO in 1984 (stunning!); (4) Rubinstein and Haitink in the Concertgebouw in 1973); (5) Dimitris Sgouros and Uros Lajovic and the Slovenian State Symphony, under which the viewers' comments consist of words like "great" and "phenomenal"; and (6) Pollini with Christian Thieleman in Dresden. If you have your computer linked to your TV with an HDMI lead then you'll be in for a treat with this lot!

indeeed and i have recently acquired a new tuner box for teresstrial digital, and am hopoing to 'smarten' it with a wifi dongle and get youtube on the telly via that route .... but a high definition monitor and pc playing audio through a usb/dac converer into NAD Amp and Q Speakers feel doing ok sat here at the desk! as El Senor Bluesnik remarked in another jazz context, R3 aint even for the birds, my ducks pefer youtube ....

[slarty]

I just listened to the broadcast this morning and was not impressed. Freire sounds underwhelming, his sound is also a little too recessed for my taste.
I did not listen further than the 2nd movement. Life is too short. I would rather lisen to one I really like. Brendel/Davis or Pollini-Abbado.
The Barenboim-Barbirolli has been a constant companion over the decades. No matter that Ms Smith dismissed it out of hand. I dismiss her recommendation equally abruptly.
I'm only sorry that I wasted half an hour listening to it.

[Hornspieler]

Barenboim/Barbirolli has always been one of my favourite recordings of anything (purchased the LP when it came out in later 60s), except for a period when I convinced myself that too much emotion (in any kind of art) was self-indulgent. Now I am back to loving its youthful ardour, and, forget tempo, which is not necessarily much to do with it, if you want a youthful performance in tune with the tumult of feeling young Brahms put into the work, you won't be disappointed with this one, with the young pre-conducting Barenboim at his peak as a pianist, the very young Barbirolli (!) matching or exceeding him in emotional identification, and the Philharmonia obviously stirred and excited by the sense of occasion. The strings in the slow movement are balm for the soul.

If, on the other hand, you want a version that brings out the symphonic qualities, Pollini/Bohm or Arrau/Guilini.

(I love the Chailly/Gewandhaus in Brahms, but don't see Freire as a large enough pianistic personality).

I quote from my message #78 on this thread:

Originally Posted by Alison
Staggered as we are by the virtuosity of many a pianist today, it's not difficult to conclude that very few have truly penetrated to the heart of this great concerto. I rather like that in a way.

I think that is true of musicians in general, Alison.

They may be more dextrous and accurate than their forebears, but that ability to put a lump in the listener's throat and bring a tear to the eye seems, like much in modern life, to be missing from present day performers - soloists, orchestral players and (dare I say it?) composers.

Yes, for me, the definitive interpretation is Claudio Arrau.

I heard him play this with the Philharmonia way back in 1954, so I accept salymap's observation that our tastes are influenced by our first experience of a work and it is the memory of that concert and not just Arrau's playing that is an illustration of what I wrote in the message quoted above.

Playing principal horn was Edmund Chapman (for me, the finest leader of a horn section that I ever played with)
In the Brahms concerto, the coda in the last movement is introduced by a simple ascending arpeggio passage played by the first horn.
The feeling, the love of music, the respect for the composer's wishes were all there. I was overcome with emotion and can still feel that sensation even now.

Contrast this with a recent broadcast of Tchaikowsky's Romeo and Juliet overture.

The introduction of that beautiful love theme by the first horn could just as easily be interpreted as the siren on a fire engine rushing through the traffic. Even the doppler effect was there after the first twelve notes!

Not a trace of emotion, agony or despair - just a succession of notes. But of course technically perfect even although it conveyed absolutely no emotional feeling.

"Nostalgia isn't what it used to be" they say, but I'm very glad that I was around then, when music was more than just a demonstration of technical expertise.

HS

[salymap]

Well said HS, Arrau was a great pianist and some time in the 1950s I heard him rehearse something in the confined space of St Pancras Town Hall with the LSO and Sargent.

It wasn't Brahms, can't remember what it was but I've never forgotten being surrounded by the music, which must have been as you experienced it.