BaL 21.09.13 - Sibelius Symphony no. 3 in C

[Tony Halstead]

I had visitors and missed the 'winner'.

I will try to listen later but
w ho did come first please?

EDIT reading back I assume Previn. Ah well......

No, not Previn, but Colin Davis - before he was knighted - conducting the Boston S.O. in 1976. I enjoyed his strong, powerful and not-too-dark and mournful ( compared to some others) interpretation but kept wishing he had a better orchestra. Strings and woodwind superb but, oh, that very blaring and SHARP brass section in the last movement ruled it out for me.
Every trumpeter, trombonist and hornist playing 'E' in the last couple of minutes sounded as if they were trying to compete with the old King's College choir during the Willcocks era, where 'wide / tempered' major 3rds were 'de rigueur'.

I remain more than happy with my old Saga LP of the ( former) S.N. O. under Alex Gibson and wish it were on CD.
I missed the start of the programme so don't know if the latter was mentioned...the later version, recorded rather harshly in the boxy acoustic of the 'SNO Centre' on 'Chandos' did indeed get a rather lukewarm mention.
I'm now thinking of buying the Davis 2003 'LSO live' version as a digital alternative to Gibson.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, you were right, Alpie - and so was RO. And I thought he gave a model BaL (as so often): discussing with copious illustrations a wide range of recordings, fair in his opinions (which were always rooted in the score and the composer's comments on it) never gratuitously dismissing a recording, generous in giving credit wherever he found it, wearing his considerable intelligence lightly, communicating to his audience, not talking down to them, serious without being pompous, perceptive comments that avoided the "clever for its own sake" phrase - above all, at the service of the work and the prospective buyer.

By far the best broadcast on R3 this month - a happy recollection of a time when the station cared for what it did and for the people who cared to listen to it.

[Nick Armstrong]

Yes, you were right, Alpie - and so was RO. And I thought he gave a model BaL (as so often): discussing with copious illustrations a wide range of recordings, fair in his opinions (which were always rooted in the score and the composer's comments on it) never gratuitously dismissing a recording, generous in giving credit wherever he found it, wearing his considerable intelligence lightly, communicating to his audience, not talking down to them, serious without being pompous, perceptive comments that avoided the "clever for its own sake" phrase - above all, at the service of the work and the prospective buyer.

By far the best broadcast on R3 this month - a happy recollection of a time when the station cared for what it did and for the people who cared to listen to it.

Spot on ferney. I thought RO got it dead right, but maybe that's just because he echoed my thoughts about performances I know of this symphony (whilst reminding me what a great piece it is).

As mentioned up-thread

I've always felt Colin Davis (both Boston and LSO) found something - a lilt and a poetry - in No 3 that I haven't heard from others.

Looking forward to this BAL from the classy Mr O

RO was so right (I thought) to stress the importance of tempo - both absolute and relative - in allowing this piece to "work" - and put his finger on why some performances I know fall flat, especially in the slow movement (Vanska - unrivalled for me in No 5 - dead in the water in that movement of No 3, and yes with an unappealing recording).

And it was fascinating to hear about Sibelius's telegram about tempo - the metronome mark being difficult to follow and the conductor should feel free to adjust the tempo to make the performance "live".

The other performance this morning that caught my ear was one I don't know - Berglund/Helsinki. (No mention of the Bournemouth recording - I think I'm right? No reason given?)

Maazel's perfunctory way with the slow movement made me take a step away from acquiring his VPO set; and I thought that, in juxtaposition with Davis/Boston and Berglund/Helsinki, the Jansons/Oslo sounded a rather nasty boxy recording.

I take Tony's point about the quality of the Boston recording but then I don't somehow mind the slighty rustic, direct feel of it all.

And a treat to hear RO general - the glint of secret tarns in the mountains, .... damn, there was another felicitous phrase that's gone out of my mind

[Barbirollians]

An excellent BAL from RO as ever even though I didn't agree with him in his final conclusion as I have always felt a bit lukewarm about that Boston cycle - and was somewhat surprised he did not discuss the RCA version as it is available. That is probably my favourite Davis Third .

I take his point about Barbirolli's tempi but what an impact that performance continues to make .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

An excellent BAL from RO as ever even though I didn't agree with him in his final conclusion as I have always felt a bit lukewarm about that Boston cycle - and was somewhat surprised he did not discuss the RCA version as it is available. That is probably my favourite Davis Third .

He mentioned it in passing - he felt that the studio conditions left out a sense of urgency (not his word) that was present in the LSO LIVE recording, and he wasn't keen on the RCA recorded sound.

I take his point about Barbirolli's tempi but what an impact that performance continues to make .

- and RO had many positive things to say about Barbirolli and his history with this Symphony, just that it couldn't be on his list of "finalists".

[verismissimo]

Invested (in the cycle).

[LeMartinPecheur]

I learnt the work from the DG Kamu recording on LP, and haven't bought that many CD alternatives (just Collins and Barbirolli in complete sets plus Elder on BBC MM).

Would still put in a plug for Mr Kamu

Well, all of these (assuming the Elder BBC MM recording to be the one he mentioned, presumably now also on the Halle's live label) got pretty well slated!

Have just played the Kamu again having probably not spun it for 20-odd years. Nice open recording quality but OK, probably not the greatest performance. The BSO/Davis box is starting to talk to me...

EDIT Via Amazon I've established that the the BBC MM Elder performance is indeed the same one (26/4/07) that RO reviewed. Amazon reviewers rate it!

[salymap]

Not meant to be maudlin but I couldn't helpthinking of a day atGoodwin's the early 1950s when Colin and Alex [not then knighted] both came in in Nat.Service uniform.

Much laughter and joking. I hope somewhere one is congratulating the other at this moment.

Two ofmy favourite Sibelius conductors - the other MS

[Barbirollians]

There is also a live Barbirolli account on BBC legends coupled with a live Nielsen Four. A treasurable disc.

I am rather surprised to see that Gibson's accounts on Chandos are now download only .

[vibratoforever]

The 3rd movement of the Barbirolli Legends Sibelius 3 is particularly fine, with the whole performance several notches above the studio performance.

More importantly I echo the comments of others on this forum about Richard Osborne showing how to do a BAL programme. Mind you he should know, I have recordings of him doing the same from 30 years ago!

[BBMmk2]

What's the BBC Legends version nlike as opposed to the Barbirolli/SibEdition on EMI?

[slarty]

The 3rd movement of the Barbirolli Legends Sibelius 3 is particularly fine, with the whole performance several notches above the studio performance.

I find that in almost all cases of JB's late recordings, the concurrent live performance was to be preferred where it existed, even if the orchestral execution was not quite up to the recording standard.
The LSO Heldenleben(sept 69,also BBC legends) and this Sibelius third are prime examples. There were 9 weeks between the recording(28 may) and this outstanding prom(8 august) performance.
I enjoyed Osbornes BAL on the symphony and can only suppose that he overlooked it or assumed it would not be any different to the commercial recording.
I prefer to think that he overlooked it, he is too good a reviewer to make that mistake.

[Barbirollians]

I find that in almost all cases of JB's late recordings, the concurrent live performance was to be preferred where it existed, even if the orchestral execution was not quite up to the recording standard.
The LSO Heldenleben(sept 69,also BBC legends) and this Sibelius third are prime examples. There were 9 weeks between the recording(28 may) and this outstanding prom(8 august) performance.
I enjoyed Osbornes BAL on the symphony and can only suppose that he overlooked it or assumed it would not be any different to the commercial recording.
I prefer to think that he overlooked it, he is too good a reviewer to make that mistake.

That is a good point and can even be extended to the Mahler 6 - magnificent as the studio recording is, the Testament issue of a live contemporaneous performance is even finer.

[slarty]

That is a good point and can even be extended to the Mahler 6 - magnificent as the studio recording is, the Testament issue of a live contemporaneous performance is even finer.

Yes I agree with you totally. That Mahler 6 was a tour de force, whereas his studio version was somewhat lacking in pulse. I am sorry to say that a few of his last recordings were not quite as they would have been had he not been in such failing health.
It's a miracle he continued as he did, especially during the last 18 months,which were particularly full with all the sessions and all the guest concerts all over europe and the States that he conducted. We are lucky that so many of the european concerts were broadcast or recorded and are finally being issued commercially after years of neglect.
I have spent the day listening to both Sibelius 3 versions and also Gibson's two accounts of it.
I would put Barbirolli Live in first place, but only just in front of the Gibson Saga(Waverley) studio recording.
Mr Osborne missed a trick yesterday.

[Barbirollians]

Yes I agree with you totally. That Mahler 6 was a tour de force, whereas his studio version was somewhat lacking in pulse. I am sorry to say that a few of his last recordings were not quite as they would have been had he not been in such failing health.
It's a miracle he continued as he did, especially during the last 18 months,which were particularly full with all the sessions and all the guest concerts all over europe and the States that he conducted. We are lucky that so many of the european concerts were broadcast or recorded and are finally being issued commercially after years of neglect.
I have spent the day listening to both Sibelius 3 versions and also Gibson's two accounts of it.
I would put Barbirolli Live in first place, but only just in front of the Gibson Saga(Waverley) studio recording.

Mr Osborne missed a trick yesterday.

Yet Sir John was able to turn out magnificent performance live right to the end of his life - the King's Lynn Elgar 1 from days before he died being a notable example.