BaL 26.02.11 Bruckner Symphonies

[makropulos]

A few examples of Suisse Romande Bruckner:
No. 4 - Weingartner, 1933
No. 9 - Schuricht, 1953
No. 4 and No. 7 - Schuricht, 1961
No. 3 - Matacic, 1966
No. 7 - Kletzki, 1969
No. 8 - Sawallisch, 1973
No. 6 - Horst Stein, 1973
No. 7 - Stein, 1979
No. 3 - Sawallisch, 1979
No. 9 - Sawallisch 1983
No. 9 - Dorati, 197,
No. 8 - Stein, 1988
No. 7 - Sanderling, 1992
and plenty of others (all culled from the OSR archives at www.osr.ch)

[Alison]

I'm not sure what tradition really means in this context.

Wouldn't most of our orchestras programme a couple of Bruckners most seasons ?

[Bryn]

Thank you malropulos. So, according to the OSR website, they have performed one or other of the 9 numbered Bruckner symphonies on but 32 occasions between 1927 and 1999 inclusive, and have given a further 22 Bruckner symphony performances so far this century. Of the total, 13 have been of the 7th, with the 1st and 2nd receiving but one performance each. Neither 0 nor 00 have been performed at all. That hardly constitutes a tradition in my books. Oh, and they have performed the Te Deum twice, it being the first work by Bruckner they performed (back in 1921). None of that should be used dismiss a particular performance or recording from them, but it does, I feel, justify the claim that they lack much of a Bruckner tradition.

[aeolium]

Tradition can be a bit of an albatross for an orchestra moving forward, for instance the tradition of Austro-German performance created by Karajan with the BPO. Not having an especial tradition associated with a composer's works can be an advantage in allowing an orchestra to come to the works afresh (as for instance with Dausgaard and the Swedish Chamber Orchestra playing Schumann).

My comment about the Suisse Romande having a long tradition was not intended to be about Bruckner performance particularly but simply as a fine orchestra.

[makropulos]

Thank you malropulos. So, according to the OSR website, they have performed one or other of the 9 numbered Bruckner symphonies on but 32 occasions between 1927 and 1999 inclusive, and have given a further 22 Bruckner symphony performances so far this century. Of the total, 13 have been of the 7th, with the 1st and 2nd receiving but one performance each. Neither 0 nor 00 have been performed at all. That hardly constitutes a tradition in my books. Oh, and they have performed the Te Deum twice, it being the first work by Bruckner they performed (back in 1921). None of that should be used dismiss a particular performance or recording from them, but it does, I feel, justify the claim that they lack much of a Bruckner tradition.

I'd pretty much agree with that - yes. Though with Sawallisch and Horst Stein as successive principal conductors it's not surprising that the orchestra was very much at home in Austro-German repertoire. And whether the Janowski Bruckner 8 is remarkable or not has little to do with that, since it was made 30 years later. (For what it's worth, I couldn't quite understand the enthusiasm for it, but each to their own.)

[Petrushka]

I've recently bought on Australian Eloquence Horst Stein's B2 and B6 with the VPO, and was thinking the same as you - the VPO recorded in high resolution sound would be very welcome.

Yes, I bought those two CD's recently as I wanted to have a complete VPO cycle and very fine they are. As far as I know these are the only VPO recordings of B2 and B6 unless, of course, anyone knows different. Agree 100% with Alison and PJPJ.

Quiz question: what was the last new (as opposed to reissue) recording of a Bruckner symphony from the VPO? I'm damned if I know. One of Abbado's truncated cycle perhaps?

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

Quiz question: what was the last new (as opposed to reissue) recording of a Bruckner symphony from the VPO? I'm damned if I know. One of Abbado's truncated cycle perhaps?

Since Abbado, there have been a few Harnoncourt recordings (5,7,8,9) and Boulez (No.8).

[Petrushka]

Since Abbado, there have been a few Harnoncourt recordings (5,7,8,9) and Boulez (No.8).

Rather to my surprise I see that I have Harnoncourt's recordings of 5 (from 2004) and 9 (from 2002) but never cared for them and think they have only had a couple of hearings each. The Boulez 8th is unexpectedly fine and I like that one. Wasn't there a DVD Boulez 9th or did I imagine it?

[Bryn]

THe Boulez DVD is of the same performance of the 8th.

[euthynicus]

I'm late to this, having just listened to the programme, but I'm afraid it really does feel like a fill-in to me: hastily assembled, wearily thirsty for the novel and sated by tradition, and apparently afraid to engage with what, after all, keeps most of us actually listening to this music: its expressive content and emotional impact. The dismissals of what you might call 'heritage' recordings (of whatever heritage) are so hackneyed now, and as wrong as ever. It's just not true to say that you can't hear the inner parts in many of K's recordings, or indeed that they are some Old Testament of Bruckner recordings (which would amount to an admission that DG's marketing was at least equal if not superior to the performances themselves). Blomstedt does appear to have stripped the LGO of whatever collective 'heritage' it once possessed: the sound I heard on the broadcast was thin, especially in the strings, with some egregious portamenti and careful but entirely unremarkable pointing of articulation. And where were they playing: a cathedral? Appropriate in its way, but clarity was the last word that came to mind. If you want clarity in a cathedral acoustic, go back to Wand and the NDR in Luebeck. That's Bruckner from a heritage, and not of the premium junkshop kind assembled by Thielemann.

The OSR certainly did sound French, didn't they? Those piercing (and slightly sharp) trumpets were a welcome sign of individuality albeit one that isn't a close fit with the music. Haitink and the BRSO offered the most to me: more mobile and spontaneous than the VPO recording, which is in speed and sound almost too good to be true (certainly too comfortable). As much as being Bruckner's most Classical symphony, it's also his most modern (of the completed ones, the Ninth venturing into another, pre-Webernian world). I think appreciation of that was why Wand performed those two the most frequently, and why he was so sure a guide to them.

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm late to this, having just listened to the programme, but I'm afraid it really does feel like a fill-in to me: hastily assembled, wearily thirsty for the novel and sated by tradition, and apparently afraid to engage with what, after all, keeps most of us actually listening to this music: its expressive content and emotional impact. The dismissals of what you might call 'heritage' recordings (of whatever heritage) are so hackneyed now, and as wrong as ever. It's just not true to say that you can't hear the inner parts in many of K's recordings, or indeed that they are some Old Testament of Bruckner recordings (which would amount to an admission that DG's marketing was at least equal if not superior to the performances themselves). Blomstedt does appear to have stripped the LGO of whatever collective 'heritage' it once possessed: the sound I heard on the broadcast was thin, especially in the strings, with some egregious portamenti and careful but entirely unremarkable pointing of articulation. And where were they playing: a cathedral? Appropriate in its way, but clarity was the last word that came to mind. If you want clarity in a cathedral acoustic, go back to Wand and the NDR in Luebeck. That's Bruckner from a heritage, and not of the premium junkshop kind assembled by Thielemann.

I listened to this discussion again, being aware that I listened to it initially in a somewhat dozy state during a nice Saturday morning lie-in. Interesting extracts, but I do agree that as it went on, there was a shallow, repetitive element to the discussion ('old monumental' versions v. 'new on the ear' versions... yawn... )...

The Thielemann sounded awful, Klaus T and Bernie H very good. I must try and hear the live LPO Tennstedt No 8 from around the same time.

But it was all a bit rum... Let's hope for a return to BAL form with Stephen Plaistow.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

ps Wouldn't it be nice to have some new Bruckner recordings from the Vienna
Philharmonic ?

It would indeed. Long ago, in the mists of time, there was a Decca LP set of Bruckner symphonies with the VPO, but with a variety of conductors. It's surprising that there has never been a full VPO cycle with a single conductor.

But, to go further, it would be good to have ANY new VPO recordings.

[mathias broucek]

I was dissapointed by the Tennstedt LPO 8th - a bit brassy and Solti-esq for my taste. The BPO version sounded more promising although Testament records are pricy for my taste.

The Stein recordings are excellent. I also like his Sibelius tone poems - an underrated conductor perhaps.

For the record, the VPO composite cycle was:

1 - Abbado
2 - Stein
3 - Boehm
4 - Boehm
5- Maazel
6 - Stein
7 - Solti
8 - Solti
9 - Mehta

[Chris Newman]

On my shelves I have glories from Barbirolli, Boehm, Celibadache, Giulini, Goodall, Haitink, Jochum and Tintner which make most others seem cheap and nasty. Sadly their availablilty comes and goes.

[3rd Viennese School]

It would take all morning just to discuss the different versions of no.3!

I alone have Version 1, Version 3 and a Version thats between 2 and 3!

3VS