BaL 8.06.13 - Byrd's Mass in Four Voices

[vinteuil]

I expect you feel tawdry and sullied; don't worry, sir, it will pass.

... I am reminded of Kyril Bonfigliogli, recently mentioned on the "Books Read" thread -

"It was still only nine o'clock when I set off on the last leg of my journey, feeling old and dirty and incapable. You probably know the feeling if you are over eighteen."

[ardcarp]

It is just a little devastating still to prefer a forty-year-old version of an Elizabethan masterpiece. I don't think that has happened to me before.

Pru. Console yourself with the knowledge that David Willcocks' recording was made 11% nearer in time than we are to the probable writing of the 4-part Mass.

[Sir Velo]

(I think we got the point quite early on, Stephen)

Simon Heighes wasn't it?

Strong feeling that Heighes went into that BAL with a very clear agenda, hence the final choice signalled pretty well from the first two or three minutes in.

I confess to not having a problem with this approach. I would expect a reviewer by the time they come to make the programme to know which version he/she was going to choose! After all, if a recording is to be selected as the library choice, surely we want to hear as many extracts from it as possible. Moreover, if the reviewer ignores the chosen recording or appears lukewarm towards it in the illustrated excerpts, it will appear bizarre if it is then chosen as the best available version, don't you think?

[DracoM]

It is a minefield, namely the debate about who were the pieces written for eg boy-led, alto-led, tiny groups of recusants with female top line-led. Lurking at the back of my mind is that, given his everyday profession, would not the soundscape in Byrd's head have been of treble line boys singing the piece? Or as with the NCO alto-led version? Yet we did not hear either CCC/Preston, or CCC/Darlington versions. The boy-led versions were merely the archive KCC - included one senses to make us feel how quaint it sounded - and a pretty dusty Winchester Cath/Hill version which actually to my ears didn't sound all that well sung at all. I think that's a pity.

[Gabriel Jackson]

It is a minefield, namely the debate about who were the pieces written for eg boy-led, alto-led, tiny groups of recusants with female top line-led. Lurking at the back of my mind is that, given his everyday profession, would not the soundscape in Byrd's head have been of treble line boys singing the piece? Or as with the NCO alto-led version? Yet we did not hear either CCC/Preston, or CCC/Darlington versions. The boy-led versions were merely the archive KCC - included one senses to make us feel how quaint it sounded - and a pretty dusty Winchester Cath/Hill version which actually to my ears didn't sound all that well sung at all. I think that's a pity.

There was an excerpt of the Darlington Christ Church recording. I would have to disagree about David Hill's recording - all three Masses on that disc are very good examples of a relatively "interventionist" interpretative stance that is beautifully realised. (Of course performing it SATB, at written pitch - or close to - brings a whole host of problems, whatever the gender of the top line.)

The idea that, because these pieces have become a staple of the Anglican men-and-boys repertoire and many prefer to hear them performed thus, Byrd must have really wanted that sound, irrespective of what he knew he would in all likelihood get, doesn't add up. Composers write for what they've got. No-one would write a piece for, say, the Hilliard Ensemble thinking "what I'd really like here is the Huddersfield Choral Society"...

[cincinnatus]

The Darlington recording was played immediately after KCC and was described as more down to earth. The Preston recording does not appear to be currently available - Presto Classical do not list it on their BAL site and Amazon only list one second hand copy.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Composers write for what they've got. No-one would write a piece for, say, the Hilliard Ensemble thinking "what I'd really like here is the Huddersfield Choral Society"...

Precisely.

[DracoM]

So what are we saying? That there's NO debate about forces for this piece? Or are we agreeing that in terms of Renaissance choral music parameters for HIPP performances are all conjectural....? Or you go with whatever forces are available, as GJ said, in which case how much attention do you pay to tradition and scholarship?? Genuine question - not trying to score points.

If a composer these days gets a commission from a particular ensemble / foundation, does he/ she really pay NO attention to the forces available in said ensemble?

OK, I can quite see that in today's commercial world where some pro singer women are now trained / directed to sing as much like boys as poss in this repertoire it might indeed make commercial and economic sense to sing Renaissance music using such professional ensembles - women's voices don't 'break', have more time and expertise to rehearse and perfect than a busy trad cathedral choir, the pro ensembles can far more readily record / tour thus maximising sales / etc. and an excellent spin-off in that the music becomes more widely available...... Yes, I really do see all that but in a BAL, maybe there are different parameters? Are you looking for the best available ONLY, and in that case we're back to square one i.e. what IS 'the best available'?

[Gabriel Jackson]

So what are we saying? That there's NO debate about forces for this piece? Or are we agreeing that in terms of Renaissance choral music parameters for HIPP performances are all conjectural....? Or you go with whatever forces are available, as GJ said, in which case how much attention do you pay to tradition and scholarship?? Genuine question - not trying to score points.

There isn't a great deal of doubt about the forces that would have performed Byrd's Masses though, is there? And they wouldn't have been a full Anglican choir of men and boys. No reason why such choirs shouldn't the music of course, but to suggest that's what Byrd really wanted, just because we might like it, doesn't make sense. There's a difference between tradition and scholarship, of course...

If a composer these days gets a commission from a particular ensemble / foundation, does he/ she really pay NO attention to the forces available in said ensemble?

No, quite the opposite! Of course they do (or should...)

OK, I can quite see that in today's commercial world where some pro singer women are now trained / directed to sing as much like boys as poss in this repertoire it might indeed make commercial and economic sense to sing Renaissance music using such professional ensembles - women's voices don't 'break', have more time and expertise to rehearse and perfect than a busy trad cathedral choir, the pro ensembles can far more readily record / tour thus maximising sales / etc. and an excellent spin-off in that the music becomes more widely available...... Yes, I really do see all that but in a BAL, maybe there are different parameters? Are you looking for the best available ONLY, and in that case we're back to square one i.e. what IS 'the best available'?

Presumably, in the opinion of Simon Heighes, the Cardinall's Musick recording IS the "best available", since that was his choice and he gave his (good) reasons for it.

[DracoM]

Interestingly the recent CCC/Darlington Eton Choir Book CD has small solo groups matched against full ensemble at various points. Makes an interesting point about the musical structures thereby. And of course shows that 'trad Anglican' forces can deliver revelatory performances. Maybe Westminster Cathedral / CCC might think about doing the Byrd 4-part with similarly innovative set-ups?

Nevertheless, as said earlier, I'd be very keen to hear Stile Antico / Tenebrae in this material.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Interestingly the recent CCC/Darlington Eton Choir Book CD has small solo groups matched against full ensemble at various points. Makes an interesting point about the musical structures thereby. And of course shows that 'trad Anglican' forces can deliver revelatory performances. Maybe Westminster Cathedral / CCC might think about doing the Byrd 4-part with similarly innovative set-ups?

Nevertheless, as said earlier, I'd be very keen to hear Stile Antico / Tenebrae in this material.

That's how the reduced voice sections in early Tudor repertoire should be sung, of course, by solo voices. The music of the Eton Choirbook was (unlike Byrd's Masses) written for choirs like that at Christ Church (although which voices sang which parts then is probably not quite the same as today...)

[ardcarp]

It is postulated by scholars that far fewer trebles (maybe 6 or less) sang at any one time in pre-Reformation times (rather than the 12 - 20 found in a cathedral front line in more recent times). This view is partly based on the fact that singing was often done around a single book (such as the Eton Choir Book) where all the parts are printed at different angles on a double page spread.

An interesting point was made by Andrew Carwood on Sunday's EMS. Asked if Byrd, like so many other composers of the time, fell immediately out of favour after his death only to be re-discovered later, AC replied that because of the revival of 'the choral tradition' in the 17th century, Byrd was more or less continuously in the repertoire...not in Latin, of course, but either through his 'English' pieces or by grafting English texts on to the Latin ones. So the argument about whether boys' choirs are 'authentic' ought to take into account that Byrd's choral music (though admittedly not the Masses) has probably been sung by all-male choirs since the Restoration, over some 350 years.

[ardcarp]

PS Apologies for calling Simon Heighes 'Stephen' upthread.

[ardcarp]

Oh dear, sorry to keep posting. In far off lay-clerk days we used occasionally to sing from Boyce Cathedral Music (C-clefs and all)...more for tradition than anything else. I recall that Vols II and III had a lot of Byrd, some with new English texts such as Bow Thine Ear.

http://www1.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Cathedral_Music,_Volume_2_(William_Boyce)

and

http://www0.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Cathedral_Music,_Volume_3_(William_Boyce)

Boyce's great contribution to music (apart from his own works) was his mission to preserve and publish what we would now call the English choral heritage. And his inclusion of many works by Tallis and Byrd suggests that they were regularly part of the repertory.

[Gabriel Jackson]

It is postulated by scholars that far fewer trebles (maybe 6 or less) sang at any one time in pre-Reformation times (rather than the 12 - 20 found in a cathedral front line in more recent times). This view is partly based on the fact that singing was often done around a single book (such as the Eton Choir Book) where all the parts are printed at different angles on a double page spread.

it is known that the choir of Christ Church, Oxford (for example) has the same number of boys - 16 - and the same number of men - 12 - that it had in the 16th century. what is not known is who sang what, but it seems probable that (unlike today) the boys sang treble and mean parts, the men contratenor, tenor and bassus parts.

An interesting point was made by Andrew Carwood on Sunday's EMS. Asked if Byrd, like so many other composers of the time, fell immediately out of favour after his death only to be re-discovered later, AC replied that because of the revival of 'the choral tradition' in the 17th century, Byrd was more or less continuously in the repertoire...not in Latin, of course, but either through his 'English' pieces or by grafting English texts on to the Latin ones. So the argument about whether boys' choirs are 'authentic' ought to take into account that Byrd's choral music (though admittedly not the Masses) has probably been sung by all-male choirs since the Restoration, over some 350 years.

Does anyone think all-male choirs are "inauthentic" in Byrd's English music?!