BaL 1.06.13 - Brahms Symphony no 2 in D

[Barbirollians]

Szell's recording is head and shoulders above the others I have heard of the Walton 2nd and i am inclined to a position halfway between JLW and FHGL . It is not as bad as JLW reckons but not the equal of the First .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

This reminds me of our differences over Rachmaninov's 3rd!
(I might say that the Hindemith Variations stand in relation to the Walton Symphony No.2, as the Symphonic Dances do to Rachmaninov's 3rd...)

The similarity struck me, too!

To clarify my position, I think the First Symphony is a much more succesful work, but the Second is IMO the finest thing he wrote after the Violin Concerto. The Szell is probably the best overall performance of the Second, but Mackerras does wonders with the first two movements that I find even better than Szell. Years since I heard Previn's recording (usually the benchmanrk conductor for this composer) but Brabbins makes a better case for the Finale than Mackerras - partly, perhaps, because his first two movements aren't so wonderful?!

How did we get from Brahms to this?

[LaurieWatt]

Sorry to disappoint Throstles, but I've tried long and hard with Walton 2 and have given up. I can hear the features fhg describes in the first movement of course, but for me they simply don't add up to a convincing or memorable structure or statement. The harmony is indeed earpricking, but the thematic invention and development seem shallow here, with too much tilting at the same rhythmic windmills. Apart from a more contrasted lyrical episode (around 6'00 in Szell's recording) I also find it quite monotonous, chasing down the same burrows, coming up with little. And there's no getting around this particular finale-problem!

I would envy you, fhg, in finding so much there, but, the lento aside, I'd need another lifetime to do so. This reminds me of our differences over Rachmaninov's 3rd!
(I might say that the Hindemith Variations stand in relation to the Walton Symphony No.2, as the Symphonic Dances do to Rachmaninov's 3rd...)

(Sorry about the rabbits running into windmills. Perhaps I'm hungry).

It was Mackerras's recording that I played - the one coupled with the 1st Symphony. I love his and the LPO's performance of the first symphony and was so troubled by my failure to appreciate what the music in the second was saying or its intellectual content that I played it seven times in succession on a long drive...to no avail!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've just played the Jurowski from Monday's Essential Classics and have to say that I totally agree with SJ's awarding the laurels to this recording (even if the cloth-eared twit missed the point with Abbado/BPO!) - it is superb: superb judging of Tempi within and between Movements; phenomenally well played by the orchestra (particularly trombones & tuba, and the second oboist, whose line Jurowski encouraged to bring out in the Scherzo, making the reference back to the opening motif of the First Movement clear without being obtrusive - but everyone played as if their joy depended on it - a "Live" event in every sense of both words); splendid recorded sound (judging from the i-Player) and well-behaved audience (a solitary cough at bar 328 of the First Movement and applause after the end).

So far, so extremely competent, but what made this performance a winner for me was the conductor's grasp of the light and shade of the whole work: he's studied the score thoroughly - adding few "interpretative improvements" and hearing the dots on the page as real, active sounds that he encouraged the orchestra to realize to their full. Every time I found myself wondering about a particular detail, a quick glance at the score showed that that was where it was taken from. It all added up to an utterly wonderful, rich achievement, bringing the shadows, the lyricism and the comedy (and there is a lot of comedy in this work - not least the "Ooh! Get her!" of the camp oom-pah Coda in the First Movement) to glorious life.

Thoroughly recommended if you missed it on Monday - and thanks to SJ for suggesting it.

[Nick Armstrong]

I've just played the Jurowski from Monday's Essential Classics and have to say that I totally agree with SJ's awarding the laurels to this recording (even if the cloth-eared twit missed the point with Abbado/BPO!) - it is superb: superb judging of Tempi within and between Movements; phenomenally well played by the orchestra (particularly trombones & tuba, and the second oboist, whose line Jurowski encouraged to bring out in the Scherzo, making the reference back to the opening motif of the First Movement clear without being obtrusive - but everyone played as if their joy depended on it - a "Live" event in every sense of both words); splendid recorded sound (judging from the i-Player) and well-behaved audience (a solitary cough at bar 328 of the First Movement and applause after the end).

So far, so extremely competent, but what made this performance a winner for me was the conductor's grasp of the light and shade of the whole work: he's studied the score thoroughly - adding few "interpretative improvements" and hearing the dots on the page as real, active sounds that he encouraged the orchestra to realize to their full. Every time I found myself wondering about a particular detail, a quick glance at the score showed that that was where it was taken from. It all added up to an utterly wonderful, rich achievement, bringing the shadows, the lyricism and the comedy (and there is a lot of comedy in this work - not least the "Ooh! Get her!" of the camp oom-pah Coda in the First Movement) to glorious life.

Thoroughly recommended if you missed it on Monday - and thanks to SJ for suggesting it.

(Going to have to listen to my CD again, I've never clocked the "Carry On Up The Coda" bit, Matron !! )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(Going to have to listen to my CD again, I've never clocked the "Carry On Up The Coda" bit, Matron !! )

It's always struck me that way, since Loughran's wonderful recording - you get the beautiful, Romantic horn solo, then the strings schmaltz it up even more (all with the only tempo modifications in the Movement: un poco stringendo, ritardando, piu tranquillo, poco rit - all within 44 bars) before the perky um-chas of the last 24. Brahms gently sending up his own earnestness - or perhaps that of his contemporaries?

[Nick Armstrong]

perky um-chas

I love it when you get all technical...

[BBMmk2]

I love it when you get all technical...

indeed! likewise! I have been thinking abiout this Abbado9 set for quite a while mnow. I am still perplexed, with SJ's opion, as well, Ferney!

[Barbirollians]

The Abbado set is excellent - albeit I think his 1st the best of the four . The tax dodgers seemed to be selling the individual discs more cheaply when bought together than the complete set.

I listened to the Jurowski on iplayer this evening and I was much more impressed by it as a whole than in excerpts on BAL . It strikes me actually as a very central , very BAL recording - one that does the music complete justice without any idiosyncracies even if I did not quite get why it has been so raved about .

[Pianoman]

I brought the Jurowski up on Spotify and was immediately gripped, so much so I listened to the whole thing through again! I confess I didn't give much credence to yet another Brahms 2 (I've stuck with Abbado, Walter and Klemperer for years now) but I really did respond to the urgency and phrase shaping in Jurowski's interpretation, and superb playing does rather help! I was less convinced by No. 1 in the same set (especially the finale's coda, always a trouble spot..) but haven't really had time to digest it properly. I won't give up on my other favourite 2s, but I felt this was indeed rather special.

[Thropplenoggin]

By golly, Barbirollians, you were jolly well right about Walter's account! It's superb! Dare I say after our little contre-temps that I even prefer it to the Jurowski? What was SJ thinking?!! It's paired with No.3 and about to be ordered by me.

Given R3's new-found love for all things Tweetie-pie, e-missive, Freakbook et al, wouldn't it actually be good to use this interactivity to engage the audience in something they clearly feel strongly about - BaL. A bit of feedback the following week on listener's reactions to the choice, in which they could highlight omissions, random dismissals, give their own favourites. Or, alternatively, have the reviewer on to respond to that feedback a la R4's show, um, Feedback.

[vibratoforever]

I really like Walter's late recording of Brahms 2 but I rate his Brahms 3 as the best of the four, you are in for a treat!

[Sir Velo]

In common with some other MBoarders I was sad that there was no mention of Barbirolli, nor the magnificent Szell/ Cleveland version.

I have the Szell recording and enjoy it for its breadth of vision and sundry felicities of orchestral playing. However, it has to be admitted that it is sounding rather elderly these days, wheezing like a superannuated smoker, with the strings particularly thin. The notoriously boxy CBS acoustic doesn't help.

Agreed with SJ that the Gardiner sounded very austere. Elsewhere, his points seemed spot in. Given the huge number of recordings he had to get through in a ridiculously small slot, that was an excellent piece of broadcasting. Remember the title is Building a Library: i.e. for neophytes. Not "Augmenting an Already Ginormous Collection".

No, I was impressed with the LPO/Jurowski extracts we heard malgre moi,and look forward to hearing the entire symphony when I've downloaded it - er, listened to it on the iplayer of course.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I really like Walter's late recording of Brahms 2 but I rate his Brahms 3 as the best of the four, you are in for a treat!

[silvestrione]

Which Walter are we talking about here? Mine are with the NYPhil.

(Sorry: missed the word 'late' on the above post)