BaL 16.02.13 - Mahler's 6th Symphony in A minor

[Mahler's3rd]

My Favourite is The Berlin Philharmonic/Abbado set, with the John Barbirolli /New Philharmonia recording from the Proms in 1967 a very close 2nd

[BBMmk2]

AQh Mahler's 3rd, yes whoeheartedly agree with you there. In my list though I thought I better include other noteworthy interpreters!

[Mahler's3rd]

Brassbandmaestro. As other colleagues/friends on the thread have chucked in Das Lied Von Der Erde and The 10th, thought I'd throw these in for good measure The 10th Rudolph Barshai & The Junge Deutsche a superb completion often overlooked in favour of the Deryck Cooke Version and as fas as Das Lied Von Der Erde goes, probably another on BBC Legends Label The BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra/Jascha Horenstein with Alfreda Hodgson & John Mitchinson plus Bruno Walter with The VPO. (As I've said before not technically perfect in the confines of a studio setting with digital recording facilities etc etc) but Some of these early live recordings really give a sense of occasion and it must have been a thrilling experience witnessing some of them

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've never been able to think of Das Lied as a symphony, despite the composer's claim.

[Petrushka]

It might be a bit nerd-like but - those hammer blows in the finale. Mahler described these hammer blows as 'short, powerful, heavy-sounding of unmetallic quality like the stroke of an axe'. Most recordings I know sound pretty puny to be honest, you'd hardly know they were there. It may be nerdish but Mahler went to a lot of trouble to obtain the right effect so it seems strange for recording engineers to take fright. I wonder which one gets it right or as close as any? Inbal in his Frankfurt recording would be my choice here. Any other nominations for the best hammer blows on record?

[amateur51]

It might be a bit nerd-like but - those hammer blows in the finale. Mahler described these hammer blows as 'short, powerful, heavy-sounding of unmetallic quality like the stroke of an axe'. Most recordings I know sound pretty puny to be honest, you'd hardly know they were there. It may be nerdish but Mahler went to a lot of trouble to obtain the right effect so it seems strange for recording engineers to take fright. I wonder which one gets it right or as close as any? Inbal in his Frankfurt recording would be my choice here. Any other nominations for the best hammer blows on record?

In live performance I've seen two extremes. Karajan's Berlin Phil had a large wooden block which was struck with great force using a huge wooden mallet; whereas for Abbado's LSO a member of the percussion section (of course) merely picked up one of the stage flats and slammed it back down using his foot. Visually and sonically, the Berlin Phil won



Mind you, the Berlin Phil also used a reel-to-reel tape recorder to produce the exact sounds of cow bells that HvK required

[Roehre]

In live performance I've seen two extremes. Karajan's Berlin Phil had a large wooden block which was struck with great force using a huge wooden mallet; whereas for Abbado's LSO a member of the percussion section (of course) merely picked up one of the stage flats and slammed it back down using his foot. Visually and sonically, the Berlin Phil won ...:

Mengelberg did order an exorbitant large hammer, not only creating a "big" sound, but also very visible for the public, for his (rare) performances for Mahler 6.

[silvestrione]

It might be a bit nerd-like but - those hammer blows in the finale. Mahler described these hammer blows as 'short, powerful, heavy-sounding of unmetallic quality like the stroke of an axe'. Most recordings I know sound pretty puny to be honest, you'd hardly know they were there.

I strongly agree here...not having a score, and not knowing the work well, I often wonder, where were they? Have I missed one? etc. when I listen to a live broadcast.

I have Karajan on LP but have not played it in a while. My other version is off-air, Rattle and the combined BPO/VPO (at Saltzburg, was it?), magnificent sound. But the hammer blows, if I've got them right, are not much different from a good percussion thud (bass drum say).

[amateur51]

Mengelberg did order an exorbitant large hammer, not only creating a "big" sound, but also very visible for the public, for his (rare) performances for Mahler 6.

Very interesting, Roehre. Is there a biography of Mengelberg?

Do you know the story of the specially-commissioned bass drum for a performance of Verdi Requiem? I got confused between Toscanini & Cantelli and would love to be reminded of the full story.

[Roehre]

Very interesting, Roehre. Is there a biography of Mengelberg?

Do you know the story of the specially-commissioned bass drum for a performance of Verdi Requiem? I got confused between Toscanini & Cantelli and would love to be reminded of the full story.

There is, but it's in Dutch I'm afraid
Frits Zwart: Willem Mengelberg, een biografie 1871-1920, Prometheus, Amsterdam, 1999. ISBN 90-5333 7407

[amateur51]

There is, but it's in Dutch I'm afraid
Frits Zwart: Willem Mengelberg, een biografie 1871-1920, Prometheus, Amsterdam, 1999. ISBN 90-5333 7407

Many thanks Roehre

[Roehre]

Very interesting, Roehre. Is there a biography of Mengelberg?

There is, but it's in Dutch and only about Mengelberg upto the Jubilee of 25 years at the helm of the Concertgebouw, 1920:
Frits Zwart: Willem Mengelberg, een biografie 1871-1920, Prometheus, Amsterdam, 1999. ISBN 90-5333 7407

Do you know the story of the specially-commissioned bass drum for a performance of Verdi Requiem? I got confused between Toscanini & Cantelli and would love to be reminded of the full story.

I'm afraid I cannot help you here, Verdi being one of my weak points (and not likely to be strengthenend by this bicentenary either )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Do you know the story of the specially-commissioned bass drum for a performance of Verdi Requiem? I got confused between Toscanini & Cantelli and would love to be reminded of the full story.

Didn't Bernstein have a specially-constructed Bass Drum made for his recording of the Verdi that he then used in his first recording of the Mahler? (I was sure of this until I researched it on t'Internet and found ziltch!)

EDIT: No, this can't be right - the Verdi was recorded after the Mahler.

[Nick Armstrong]

In live performance I've seen two extremes. Karajan's Berlin Phil had a large wooden block which was struck with great force using a huge wooden mallet; whereas for Abbado's LSO a member of the percussion section (of course) merely picked up one of the stage flats and slammed it back down using his foot. Visually and sonically, the Berlin Phil won

Coooo..... did you see Herbie play Mahler 6 with the BPO?! Lucky s*d if so!!

I remember Tennstedt's LPO had a sort of massive trapdoor arrangement, a square frame flat on the stage, and a heavy hinged door which the percussionist would open as the moment approached, then slam shut. Effective!

As regards recordings I must audition the ones I have. A quick search of the net suggests that Chailly's Concertgebouw recording has the best hammer blows out there - don't know that reading and it's rather expensive...

[Karafan]

Two of my three favourite versions are missing from the list, presumably owing to unavailability:

Boston SO/Leinsdorf
VPO/Dohnanyi

The other one is BPO/Karajan...

Aah, yes Leinsdorf and the Aristocrat of Orchestras - a very good reading and among my favourites.

Anyone a view on the recent Pappano Santa Cecilia recording?

K.