BaL 16.02.13 - Mahler's 6th Symphony in A minor

[Thropplenoggin]

Jayne mentions the RLPO percusionist hitting a white sheet covered wooden block with a long wooden hammer, just the point at which the sense of absurdity inherent in the scene does for me, although some years ago it was an LPO percussionist whacking what looked like a tea chest with an extremely long-handled wooden mallet that made me laugh.
A very singular reaction I readily admit, to this most serious of pieces.

I believe it was Mahler who said: "A symphony must contain everything...including a clown-sized mallet and the kitchen sink."

[silvestrione]

Silvestrione - all roads lead back to Haydn, whose endlessly inventive first-movement structures often have slow introductions which feed into the exposition (eg. 85, 103) and can feature just one or several thematic groups. As with the Mahler 6 finale, Beethoven in the Op.130 Quartet brings back the intro. at key points during the 1st movement...
At (not quite) the opposite extreme, despite its teeming invention the DSCH 4 1st movement has a clearly recognisable "sonata" background with statement, development(s) and a strong sense of a recap.
I think the essence of what we now call "sonata form" is - statement/development/return, a travelling away-from and back-to, as distinct from the more static or circular forms like variation, rondo etc.

But then Haydn and later composers will go and complicate it all with sonata-rondo and developing variation...

I'm still not convinced that 'classical sonata form' is an appropriate way of describing the 6th's last movement...the 1st movement is closer, does have that sense of structure and close argument, but has that extended interlude in the development (which is lovely, and works) which I don't think you'd find before Schubert.

Isn't it that Mahler was developing, under the pressure of what he had so powerfully to express, a new symphonic form, which we might call (in shorthand) 'surge and collapse', and which he perfected in the 9th Sym 1st movement. The 6th last movement a noisy, overlong first major attempt.

You don't hear 'statement/development/return' in that movement, surely? It's struggle, assertion, set-back, struggle, assertion, set-back, willed-triumph, collapse...

[Nick Armstrong]

Jayne mentions the RLPO percusionist hitting a white sheet covered wooden block with a long wooden hammer, just the point at which the sense of absurdity inherent in the scene does for me, although some years ago it was an LPO percussionist whacking what looked like a tea chest with an extremely long-handled wooden mallet that made me laugh.
A very singular reaction I readily admit, to this most serious of pieces.

I tend to agree, gradus. I tend to gawk and giggle if there's some distracting contraption being thacked or otherwise deployed. Wheelie-bin sized mutes being shoved into tubas will always amuse me.

This would have had me all over the place:

I was at one of the CSO performances in Chicago which comprise Haitink's recording and recall a huge wooden platform to the left of the stage and resting thereon a vast heavy wooden mallet. There were three available percussionists: two great hulking men and this tiny slim little Chinese lady. Guess who was wielding the mallet!!

So I don't think the hammer should be made too theatrical - making a comedy melodrama out of a crisis is counter-productive.

The most overwhelming live Mahler 6 I ever went to was in the Barbican, I think it was a BBC orchestra, sometime in the 90s. No stars, no (melo)drama - just an honest, focussed performance - I recall tottering out with companion and walking out through all the concrete bunkers feeling that one had been given cathartic access to a human drama which just rendered one humbled and silent.

The only other comparable experience I can remember was during and after a Passover dinner I'd been invited to, when until the early hours we were told stories of her own experiences by a concentration camp survivor....

[Nick Armstrong]

I caught up with this BAL belatedly, and gave it a good listen. As ferney has pointed out above, I detected no lack of attachment to the piece from the reviewer, whose analysis I found illuminating. I do think this work repays being played without too much extra squeezing and emoting - there's so much in what Mahler actually wrote: bracing that with some discipline leads to a balance which lets the music speak with maximum effect, to this pair of ears anyway. That's what Abbado does so well, hence JJ's conclusion didn't jar for me (I was one who upthread had a virtual tenner on Old Claudio, though not necessarily in the 7.30 at Verbier). There's a thrill about the later Bernstein (I've had it spinning today).

Didn't like the sound of the Budapest/Fisher from the extracts played, it seemed a bit 'trim' to me , but I do want to hear it.

The one that intrigues me above all is the Chailly, and I've ordered a relatively cheap CD copy that I've found on the French amazon marketplace

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm still not convinced that 'classical sonata form' is an appropriate way of describing the 6th's last movement...the 1st movement is closer, does have that sense of structure and close argument, but has that extended interlude in the development (which is lovely, and works) which I don't think you'd find before Schubert.

Isn't it that Mahler was developing, under the pressure of what he had so powerfully to express, a new symphonic form, which we might call (in shorthand) 'surge and collapse', and which he perfected in the 9th Sym 1st movement. The 6th last movement a noisy, overlong first major attempt.

You don't hear 'statement/development/return' in that movement, surely? It's struggle, assertion, set-back, struggle, assertion, set-back, willed-triumph, collapse...

Absolutely I hear it, yes (as I laid out for the Thropplethrush in msg.180) - but musically, objectively speaking, it is there IN FACT - in the use of the musical ideas, the "architecture" and tonal relations. Your emotionally descriptive terms are fine but viewing it from an "informal" viewpoint.

The 6th's 1st movement is more conventional with expo repeat and one development, finale has no repeat and two developments, plus that crucial use of the introduction as a formal kingpin. Note how that intro is varied on its first return at the start of the development(s), but back to its original form at the recap (following 2nd hammer blow etc.). But you feel the pull to the tonic instinctively as, with a great wrench, the 1st main march theme returns. You KNOW you're on the home run. As much a feeling as a structural observation.

Like Mahler 6 (i), Haydn, in his Farewell Symphony's 1st movement (No. 45) also has a new, calmer episode (interlude if you like!) in the development in what until then is a monothematic movement. The Eroica has many closely related expo ideas, but again a completely new, softer one (lyrical melody on oboe) appears in the development - and so on.
I suppose you could describe the Mahler 6 finale as a new form (though I really can't), but it's thrown into relief against a strong background of classical sonata. To try to simplify further - I often hear it as three huge structural blocks: intro and exposition - then two developments following the varied return of the intro - then recap and coda following the 2nd hammer blow and intro in its original form.

With the 1st movement, the background of sonata form is nearer the structural surface, so more easily recognised.

[Nick Armstrong]

There's a thrill about the later Bernstein (I've had it spinning today).

UPDATE: The thrill is exhausted way before the end, alas... The last movement sounds shrill and tiresome to me now, unfortunately (the recording may well be partly to blame)

[LaurieWatt]

but disappointing nevertheless that a reading which captures the overwhelming bouleversement of the final pages wasn't selected as the library choice.

Of course, this is what you will find in both the live Tennstedt performances!

[Roehre]

....
I suppose you could describe the finale as a new form (though I really can't), but it's thrown into relief against a strong background of classical sonata. To try to simplify further - I often hear it as three huge structural blocks: intro and exposition - then two developments following the varied return of the intro - then recap and coda following the 2nd hammer blow and intro in its original form.....

which makes it structurally not dissimilar to Liszt's symphonic poems

[Nick Armstrong]

Of course, this is what you will find in both the live Tennstedt performances!

By the way, good to have you back Laurie!

The "large orchestra-Tennstedt-outsize percussion instrument" combination was always going to be too powerful a spell for you to resist!

[vibratoforever]

I caught up with this BAL belatedly, and gave it a good listen. As ferney has pointed out above, I detected no lack of attachment to the piece from the reviewer, whose analysis I found illuminating. I do think this work repays being played without too much extra squeezing and emoting - there's so much in what Mahler actually wrote: bracing that with some discipline leads to a balance which lets the music speak with maximum effect, to this pair of ears anyway. That's what Abbado does so well, hence JJ's conclusion didn't jar for me (I was one who upthread had a virtual tenner on Old Claudio, though not necessarily in the 7.30 at Verbier). There's a thrill about the later Bernstein (I've had it spinning today).

Didn't like the sound of the Budapest/Fisher from the extracts played, it seemed a bit 'trim' to me , but I do want to hear it.

The one that intrigues me above all is the Chailly, and I've ordered a relatively cheap CD copy that I've found on the French amazon marketplace

If the music was left to speak for itself then one recording would suffice. Give me the personality and "intervention" of a Barbirolli or a Bernstein any day of the week, not that JJ reflected accurately what their performances have to offer anyway.

[Barbirollians]

If the music was left to speak for itself then one recording would suffice. Give me the personality and "intervention" of a Barbirolli or a Bernstein any day of the week, not that JJ reflected accurately what their performances have to offer anyway.

Agreed - FHGL has impressively quoted JJ but the overall impression I had was that JJ likes his Mahler a bit civilised for my taste and that more interventionist performances don't suit him . I may be doing him a disservice but that is how he came across to me .

[Nick Armstrong]

If the music was left to speak for itself then one recording would suffice.

I know what you mean, logically reduced to extremes. It's why I didn't use the phrase.

[silvestrione]

Absolutely I hear it, yes (as I laid out for the Thropplethrush in msg.180) - but musically, objectively speaking, it is there IN FACT - in the use of the musical ideas, the "architecture" and tonal relations. Your emotionally descriptive terms are fine but viewing it from an "informal" viewpoint.

The 6th's 1st movement is more conventional with expo repeat and one development, finale has no repeat and two developments, plus that crucial use of the introduction as a formal kingpin. Note how that intro is varied on its first return at the start of the development(s), but back to its original form at the recap (following 2nd hammer blow etc.). But you feel the pull to the tonic instinctively as, with a great wrench, the 1st main march theme returns. You KNOW you're on the home run. As much a feeling as a structural observation.

Like Mahler 6 (i), Haydn, in his Farewell Symphony's 1st movement (No. 45) also has a new, calmer episode (interlude if you like!) in the development in what until then is a monothematic movement. The Eroica has many closely related expo ideas, but again a completely new, softer one (lyrical melody on oboe) appears in the development - and so on.
I suppose you could describe the Mahler 6 finale as a new form (though I really can't), but it's thrown into relief against a strong background of classical sonata. To try to simplify further - I often hear it as three huge structural blocks: intro and exposition - then two developments following the varied return of the intro - then recap and coda following the 2nd hammer blow and intro in its original form.

With the 1st movement, the background of sonata form is nearer the structural surface, so more easily recognised.

Terrific, thanks very much, Jayne.

[ucanseetheend]

I like my Mahler taken at a faster Tempo than the standard, There's been a lot of debate about how mahler intended them to be played, as far as the 6th goes I just heard Johnsons review on the podcast and have to say it was interesting opinion 90% of which I would disagree , the Royal Scottish National Orch with Jarvi on Chandos (72.32)(which he never included) a great opening movement and andante it remains my favourite and the only one that comes close is Bernsteins from the 1960s which he mentioned near the beginning of "his view" and rubbished because the"fast tempo missed some of the detail". as ever Building a Library. OPINION

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-Symphonisches-Praeludium/dp/B000000ASW

[LaurieWatt]

By the way, good to have you back Laurie!

The "large orchestra-Tennstedt-outsize percussion instrument" combination was always going to be too powerful a spell for you to resist!