BaL 16.02.13 - Mahler's 6th Symphony in A minor

[amateur51]

I keep wanting to like Gergiev because he has such energy, and I have met him and liked him a great deal, also, he seems to have such a clear view of what he wants, but, in the final analysis always seems in such a hurry and goes for the 'gut' and so often loses touch with the detail.

Many years ago, back in the '70's indeed, when Haitink was recording the three main Stravinsky ballets with the LPO in the Kingsway Hall, I had a call from a thrilled friend in the horn section who said that despite the speed with which Haitink had taken the Dance of the Earth in the Rite, all the horns had played those fiendish triple tongued passages without any error and how he hoped that they would use that take for the final edit. Well, they did and thrilling as the whole orchestra is in this passage, the horn section can be heard within the texture to thrilling effect. I then remember hearing Gergiev's recording of the same passage where you wouldn't even know that the horns were playing at all! Ok, maybe the recording clouds it but he just seems to go for effect rather than substance.

As a p.s. to this: why does everyone seem to want to put down Edward Seckersen who is to my mind one of the most intelligent and perceptive of musical commentators?

Many thanks for this Haitink story, Laurie Watt

It may not be as true now as it once was, but there was a time when Edward Seckerson's BaL or reviews of Mahler symphonies were rather predictable and could be summed up in one word

Bernstein!

[Wensleydale Blue]

I keep wanting to like Gergiev because he has such energy, and I have met him and liked him a great deal, also, he seems to have such a clear view of what he wants, but, in the final analysis always seems in such a hurry and goes for the 'gut' and so often loses touch with the detail.

Many years ago, back in the '70's indeed, when Haitink was recording the three main Stravinsky ballets with the LPO in the Kingsway Hall, I had a call from a thrilled friend in the horn section who said that despite the speed with which Haitink had taken the Dance of the Earth in the Rite, all the horns had played those fiendish triple tongued passages without any error and how he hoped that they would use that take for the final edit. Well, they did and thrilling as the whole orchestra is in this passage, the horn section can be heard within the texture to thrilling effect. I then remember hearing Gergiev's recording of the same passage where you wouldn't even know that the horns were playing at all! Ok, maybe the recording clouds it but he just seems to go for effect rather than substance.

As a p.s. to this: why does everyone seem to want to put down Edward Seckersen who is to my mind one of the most intelligent and perceptive of musical commentators?

Very interesting reading. I note your point about the detailed picture in Gergiev's interpretations, or lack of it, and the energetic tempos that are employed, but I must concede that I often prefer this visceral approach to one where the pace is slackened and the emphasis become fixed on drawn out syrupy emotions, as with Bernstein's RCO version of the 9th or a number of Tilson Thomas's performances that I have. Obviously, its all related to context and how much leeway you feel the score can take but I have to say, its usually those performances which are described as being the most truthful to the composers wishes that I frequently find the dullest.

[BBMmk2]

That's most likely why conductors pull around the music to make a greater empahsis on the score.

[Bryn]

... I agree that it is odd to recommend a DVD version .

Indeed, why not the Blu-ray version in the boxed set of 1 to 7? Apparently the audio problems with the original single disc Blu-ray release of the 6th have been resolved for the boxed set.

[LaurieWatt]

Very interesting reading. I note your point about the detailed picture in Gergiev's interpretations, or lack of it, and the energetic tempos that are employed, but I must concede that I often prefer this visceral approach to one where the pace is slackened and the emphasis become fixed on drawn out syrupy emotions, as with Bernstein's RCO version of the 9th or a number of Tilson Thomas's performances that I have. Obviously, its all related to context and how much leeway you feel the score can take but I have to say, its usually those performances which are described as being the most truthful to the composers wishes that I frequently find the dullest.

Wow, I don't mind visceral and absolutely agree with you in your last point, but my problem is that I don't want just visceral! Perhaps I want my cake and eat it but where there's a thrilling passage, I want to be thrilled - but if the music loses its structure in the process, that is a pity!

[Flosshilde]

Right, the Berliners did get a mention as a - heaven forbid! - CD version. How he can recommend a DVD for the winning BaL is anyone's guess?! The actual nominated CD is, by rights, Ivan Fischer...a worthy modern Mahlerian you should investigate, BBM. Superb sonics and an enlightening ("clean") vision of the works.

According to a review on Amazon that has the Andante as the second movement (& only two hammer-blows). I want a recording with the Andante as 3rd movement. Someone has said that the issue of order of the 2nd & 3rd movements was discussed, but was it referred to in discussion of individual recordings? (I haven't had time to listen yet).

[Tony Halstead]

I want a recording with the Andante as 3rd movement. Someone has said that the issue of order of the 2nd & 3rd movements was discussed, but was it referred to in discussion of individual recordings? (I haven't had time to listen yet).

1) 'Tops' : Szell / Cleveland
2) Levi/ Atlanta S.O.
3) Abravanel / Utah S.O.

[mathias broucek]

Slightly alarmed to hear the Chailly and BPO Bernstein described as "older". I suppose we're talking 25 years ago, but "older" to me in this context means the LP era (Kubelik, Haitink/BPO).

Shame that there weren't any of the really exciting live recordings (Tennstedt, Mitropoulos etc).

Despite having 20+ Mahler 6s, I didn't have either of the top recommendations! I agree with the positive verdict on LSO/Jansons however - I think I heard this live on Radio 3.

[jayne lee wilson]

Is that why he risked what began as a damning (and correct, in my view!) criticism of the last movement ('too long and too noisy') only to withdraw or undermine it immediately with something about 'not criticising Mahler' and 'it was what he needed to achieve his ends'...

Poor aesthetics though...too long and too noisy must be just that, not justified by anything that follows.
I'm not the only one who cannot stand the last movement, I see. Also the slow movement seems a bit sentimental and saccharine, though the tempo in the Jansons/LSO version did improve things, and Mahler's handling of the orchestra, with the way the basses surge in (in that LSO extract), is thrilling.

Andante and finale written off... I take it you enjoy the rest? Why not just avoid it altogether? Unless your hostility is suppressed attraction...
(When people make such critiques they really should tell us how they would improve things - "too long & noisy"? As the emperor said to Mozart, "too many notes" - which of Mahler's notes would you leave out?)

Mahler 6 - only live performance I ever left before the end, about 5 minutes into the finale as the allegro began. Because I was TOO involved - loved it too much and my heart couldn't cope...

Long, long ago in a Galaxy far away Ams mentioned Rattle/Berlin Phil (own label) live, 1987 - Rattle's very first concert with the Philharmoniker. One of the greatest whatever BaL thinks.
Classic choices - Abbado/CSO, Bernstein/NYPO or VPO (more bright hopes crushed in New York, more dark apocalypse in Vienna) - possibly Tennstedt/LPO live, (RFH acoustic doesn't help...)
Pet favourite - Kondrashin/Leningrad Phil.
Dark Horse - Thom. Sanderling/St Petersburg Phil. (St. Petersburg never sounds as good as the Leningrad, does it?)

Yes Ams., the last thing you want with Mahler is to keep it clean. Jed Distler misled me into buying Eschenbach/Philadelphia. I'm sure it's still around here somewhere...

At the RLPO the hammer is a coup de theatre - each time, a percussionist gets up and walks slowly to the rear top left of the choir stalls (it's a steep rake). The mallett is huge and long, brought down on a wooden block covered with a white sheet. VERY loud. The time I left the hall I could hear the hammer blows from the bar. (And wondered about going back in...)

I prefer scherzo/andante order and 3 hammer bows. Over-reverential to leave out the third.

[Thropplenoggin]

Andante and finale written off... I take it you enjoy the rest? Why not just avoid it altogether? Unless your hostility is suppressed attraction...
(When people make such critiques they really should tell us how they would improve things - "too long & noisy"? As the emperor said to Mozart, "too many notes" - which of Mahler's notes would you leave out?)

I never understand why people on here get so defensive about composers. Not everything they compose can be 100% perfect or successful, surely?! Why take offence on the artist's behalf?

I wish the BaL reviewer had gone on to explain why he felt, as I do, that as a movement, it feels formless and, thus, endless. The only tragedy I generally experience is losing the will to continue listening to it in most performances. Ergo, I'm inclined to think that it's not a very successful symphonic movement. I just lack the musicological tools to say why that is. Note, I don't have this problem with the first three movements, though I do find that the andante can often sound saccharine and slushy in a way that none of the other slow movements in Mahler do.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I wish the BaL reviewer had gone on to explain why he felt, as I do, that as a movement, it feels formless and, thus, endless. The only tragedy I generally experience is losing the will to continue listening to it in most performances. Ergo, I'm inclined to think that it's not a very successful symphonic movement. I just lack the musicological tools to say why that is.

I don't think he actually does regard the movement as "formless and endless" in quite the way you do, Thropple. He regards the whole work as a perfect, unified expression. Why he didn't go into greater detail? Well, time's winged chariot and all that ... it's a topic that could take an entire book all of its own.

This one, perhaps:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahlers-Voices-Expression-Irony-Symphonies/dp/0195372395/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361139571&sr=1-1

[rank_and_file]

An interesting BaL on Mahler’s 6th, but I do wish they would expand the time allocated to longer works. I say this having just listened to a pretty frantic and brutal live version on YouTube: Jansons and the BRSO in 2011 - 1hr 22 minutes of it - not to be recommended but so much more to hear, remember and understand than a reviewer can fit into 45 minutes or so.

Silvestrione says “though the tempo in the Jansons/LSO version did improve things, and Mahler's handling of the orchestra, with the way the basses surge in (in that LSO extract), is thrilling.”

By coincidence I was at that live "performance” (it was made out of two consecutive performances) and I thought it very good indeed. JJ talks about the “noise” of the last movement. Certainly at the front of the balcony at the Barbican we received a wall of sound that probably went off most decibel meters: my ears really felt it, and I can understand why musicians develop real hearing problems.

I did note some glowing praise for the Abbado on the Prestoclassical site - seems he kept his arms raised for 30 seconds at the end. Having said that, I am happy to keep my old Horenstein/SPO LP which, if I remember correctly, brings some humanity to the “Tragic”.

[Barbirollians]

I never understand why people on here get so defensive about composers. Not everything they compose can be 100% perfect or successful, surely?! Why take offence on the artist's behalf?

I wish the BaL reviewer had gone on to explain why he felt, as I do, that as a movement, it feels formless and, thus, endless. The only tragedy I generally experience is losing the will to continue listening to it in most performances. Ergo, I'm inclined to think that it's not a very successful symphonic movement. I just lack the musicological tools to say why that is. Note, I don't have this problem with the first three movements, though I do find that the andante can often sound saccharine and slushy in a way that none of the other slow movements in Mahler do.

The point surely is that BAL really requires a reviewer that loves the work . If you want a critique then BAL is not the place for it .

JLW 's criticisms of the reviewer sound with mine - it is as if he finds the work over the top and inidists therefore upon compensatory restrained renderings .

Which to my ears completely misses the point about Mahler 6 - and pretty much his whole oeuvre .

[Alison]

I must admit that as a Mahler fanatic I do think of the length and scale of the works and wonder if I am really up for them.

Quite often I'm not. They are not works to put on like Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. Was JJ really saying much more than this ?

[jayne lee wilson]

I never understand why people on here get so defensive about composers. Not everything they compose can be 100% perfect or successful, surely?! Why take offence on the artist's behalf?

I wish the BaL reviewer had gone on to explain why he felt, as I do, that as a movement, it feels formless and, thus, endless. The only tragedy I generally experience is losing the will to continue listening to it in most performances. Ergo, I'm inclined to think that it's not a very successful symphonic movement. I just lack the musicological tools to say why that is. Note, I don't have this problem with the first three movements, though I do find that the andante can often sound saccharine and slushy in a way that none of the other slow movements in Mahler do.

Well Throstles (sorry, I just love birds, especially Throstles, Fieldfares, etc...)

The finale is a classical sonata form - slow introduction, exposition (3 themes: jerky march starting on basses; grimly questing theme led by horns; then hopeful theme on horn leading to a soaring straussian melody led by strings (all 3 are related to & shot through with motifs from intro); return of intro., then two developments leading to two hammer blows; intro again, then recap leading to final return of intro & 3rd hammer blow (or substitute!); coda (v.dark, brass only). Part of the joy of it is following it.
Maybe try to map it out and listen again.? Once you start to grasp the sheer density of motivic integration - remembering and relating the ideas to each other - the length should start to justify itself.

My first LP was Solti - muddy sound on vinyl, I listened over and over to see into it - inadvertently, unconsciously, grasping the structures... suddenly, there it was. (Teenagers have quick minds and good memories).

Surprised about your reaction to the andante (not much I can do about it I guess), one of Mahler's very greatest tragic inspirations which says "if only it could be like this"; but knowing - there, in the music - it can't, which the finale's ominous introduction confirms. A main reason for allegro/scherzo/andante/finale order. Emotions as well as tonal relations.