BaL 16.02.13 - Mahler's 6th Symphony in A minor

[Alison]

A pretty good effort I thought from JJ overall. Did we get his view on the movement order ?

He didn't impose too much on us. Wouldn't a Seckerson have thrusted his one dimensional view

of Mahler performance on us rather more abrasively? We were allowed to think for ourselves somehow.

Yes, Boulez suddenly fell out of the back of the television just as Haitink/BPO gained ground hand over fist

(is that version even available ??) but it was all part of an engaging survey that gave us all a few new perspectives

and ways of thinking about this colossus of a symphony.

[Thropplenoggin]

A pretty good effort I thought from JJ overall. Did we get his view on the movement order ?

He didn't impose too much on us. Wouldn't a Seckerson have thrusted his one dimensional view

of Mahler performance on us rather more abrasively? We were allowed to think for ourselves somehow.

Yes, Boulez suddenly fell out of the back of the television just as Haitink/BPO gained ground hand over fist

(is that version even available ??) but it was all part of an engaging survey that gave us all a few new perspectives

and ways of thinking about this colossus of a symphony.

Well put. It was an excellent and enjoyable survey without any prejudice. I'd still like to know what happened to Boulez, though. Perhaps the jewel case fell down the back of the sofa in the listening booth.

[EdgeleyRob]

Well put. It was an excellent and enjoyable survey without any prejudice. I'd still like to know what happened to Boulez, though. Perhaps the jewel case fell down the back of the sofa in the listening booth.

Maybe it won the best turned out prize.

[Alison]

No, Ferney much prefers that rainbow thingie of the Herbert von.

[vinteuil]

... well, my money was on the Zemlinsky arrangement for piano four hands - nary a mention! .

[Thropplenoggin]

... well, my money was on the Zemlinsky arrangement for piano four hands - nary a mention! .

Ah, I see we have a chortle merchant in our midst.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A pretty good effort I thought from JJ overall. Did we get his view on the movement order ?

Yes; he covered the Ratz decision and subsequent counter-arguments and then said that he loved the way Mahler's indecision in the matter suggested that even the composer was rather overwhelmed by what he'd created.

He didn't impose too much on us. Wouldn't a Seckerson have thrusted his one dimensional view of Mahler performance on us rather more abrasively? We were allowed to think for ourselves somehow.

I agree. Seckerson is primarily a critic (one of the terminally opinionated) whereas Johnson is an academic - used to guiding students to discover their own ideas, perhaps?

[Barbirollians]

He started with the Richard Osborne Barbirolli/Bernstein contrast and then went all "central" on us . A rather disappointing BAL as if he regarded Mahler 6 as all a bit noisy and overdone and preferred much more civilised accounts - criticising the older recordings . Somewhat disappointed that he did not consider Mitropoulos at all after his early mention or the Live Barbirolli.

Did Karajan even get a mention if so I missed it . Gergiev should have never been allowed out of the long list !

I agree that it is odd to recommend a DVD version .

[Wensleydale Blue]

Well put. It was an excellent and enjoyable survey without any prejudice. I'd still like to know what happened to Boulez, though. Perhaps the jewel case fell down the back of the sofa in the listening booth.

Also curious that TT got quite a few positive mentions and a fair bit of airplay before also disappearing down the back of the sofa, while Haitink seemed to appear out of nowhere to gain a commendation.

[Wensleydale Blue]

He started with the Richard Osborne Barbirolli/Bernstein contrast and then went all "central" on us . A rather disappointing BAL as if he regarded Mahler 6 as all a bit noisy and overdone and preferred much more civilised accounts - criticising the older recordings . Somewhat disappointed that he did not consider Mitropoulos at all after his early mention or the Live Barbirolli.

Did Karajan even get a mention if so I missed it . Gergiev should have never been allowed out of the long list !

I agree that it is odd to recommend a DVD version .

Herbie was mentioned just the once along with what seemed like a pejorative use of the word 'smooth'.

I am interested to see that Valery Marmiteiev is generally not well received on these pages. Shame - his Rite and Shosty seem pretty fine to me, but I can imagine his Mahler wouldn't be to all tastes.

[Barbirollians]

Herbie was mentioned just the once along with what seemed like a pejorative use of the word 'smooth'.

I am interested to see that Valery Marmiteiev is generally not well received on these pages. Shame - his Rite and Shosty seem pretty fine to me, but I can imagine his Mahler wouldn't be to all tastes.

I have only heard his Mahler 5 and 6 - the former I thought was a travesty, the Sixth just wilful.

His Prokofiev complete Romeo and Juliet is pretty wonderful though .

[BBMmk2]

If not a dvd version , Abbado's Berliner accoiunt is worth having a look!

[amateur51]

Right, the Berliners did get a mention as a - heaven forbid! - CD version. How he can recommend a DVD for the winning BaL is anyone's guess?! The actual nominated CD is, by rights, Ivan Fischer...a worthy modern Mahlerian you should investigate, BBM. Superb sonics and an enlightening ("clean") vision of the works.

Offer me a "clean" performance of this symphony and I'll leg it as fast as I can in t'opposite direction if that's all that's on offer. I suspect that JJ might have been gently steering us to the view that this is a work that can take all manner of journies, so dip in ... or try this DVD

[LaurieWatt]

Herbie was mentioned just the once along with what seemed like a pejorative use of the word 'smooth'.

I am interested to see that Valery Marmiteiev is generally not well received on these pages. Shame - his Rite and Shosty seem pretty fine to me, but I can imagine his Mahler wouldn't be to all tastes.

I keep wanting to like Gergiev because he has such energy, and I have met him and liked him a great deal, also, he seems to have such a clear view of what he wants, but, in the final analysis always seems in such a hurry and goes for the 'gut' and so often loses touch with the detail.

Many years ago, back in the '70's indeed, when Haitink was recording the three main Stravinsky ballets with the LPO in the Kingsway Hall, I had a call from a thrilled friend in the horn section who said that despite the speed with which Haitink had taken the Dance of the Earth in the Rite, all the horns had played those fiendish triple tongued passages without any error and how he hoped that they would use that take for the final edit. Well, they did and thrilling as the whole orchestra is in this passage, the horn section can be heard within the texture to thrilling effect. I then remember hearing Gergiev's recording of the same passage where you wouldn't even know that the horns were playing at all! Ok, maybe the recording clouds it but he just seems to go for effect rather than substance.

As a p.s. to this: why does everyone seem to want to put down Edward Seckersen who is to my mind one of the most intelligent and perceptive of musical commentators?

[silvestrione]

I agree. Seckerson is primarily a critic (one of the terminally opinionated) whereas Johnson is an academic - used to guiding students to discover their own ideas, perhaps?

Is that why he risked what began as a damning (and correct, in my view!) criticism of the last movement ('too long and too noisy') only to withdraw or undermine it immediately with something about 'not criticising Mahler' and 'it was what he needed to achieve his ends'...

Poor aesthetics though...too long and too noisy must be just that, not justified by anything that follows.
I'm not the only one who cannot stand the last movement, I see. Also the slow movement seems a bit sentimental and saccharine, though the tempo in the Jansons/LSO version did improve things, and Mahler's handling of the orchestra, with the way the basses surge in (in that LSO extract), is thrilling.