BaL 12.01.13 - The music of John Dowland

[Black Swan]

I have spent time this morning listening to the Mark Padmore recommendation. It is truly for me a recording I will listen to more and more. I am still a bit cold to the Brittion Nocturnal after Dowland. This will be an interesting year for me to hear more Britten. To date I have been very lukewarm to this composer, but hopefully, that may change.

[Richard Tarleton]

I have spent time this morning listening to the Mark Padmore recommendation. It is truly for me a recording I will listen to more and more. I am still a bit cold to the Brittion Nocturnal after Dowland. This will be an interesting year for me to hear more Britten. To date I have been very lukewarm to this composer, but hopefully, that may change.

Black Swan, the sleeve notes to the 1993 Julian Bream recording of the Nocturnal on EMI might be helpful:

The theme - "Come heavy sleep...." is taken from Dowland's Firste Booke of Songs.....However, instead of following normal procedure and beginning with the theme, Britten places it at the end of the work. The preceding eight variations consist on reflections not on the theme as a whole but on its component parts, and the first seven bear titles depicting various aspects of nocturnal sleep: "Musingly", "Very agitated", "Restless", "Uneasy", Marchlike", "Dreaming" and "Gently rocking". These are followed by an extended Passacaglia based on the six bass notes that accompany the first two notes of the song....After working towards a powerful climax demanding great virtuosity of the performer, the Passacaglia gradually subsides, giving way to the Dowland song which fades away into complete stillness.

One of the greatest, and most difficult, works in the classical guitar repertoire. The piece arose from Bream's partnership performing Dowland with Peter Pears, and Bream has told how he had to dissuade Britten from writing a piece for lute as no-one would play it, there being "only one and a half lute players in the country" - slight exaggeration but there we are. Bream pointed out to Britten that at one point in his original manuscript Britten had written two notes to be played together on one string, impossible of course - Britten was mortified, but told Bream to play one of them and think the other.

[Black Swan]

Thanks for the information. I think that the Britten will require some time to really listen to what is going on and reflect. So I will keep at it.

J

[doversoul1]

I very much enjoyed the music but I think this BaL highlighted the problems of this format (reviewing collection/project CDs): was this about CDs of or with Dowland’s music? And what aspects of the CDs was the reviewer comparing?

As for the solo lute and consort, it looked as if Tess Knighton had decided to review Dowland only CDs. I thought this was rather a pity, as there were numerous excellent CDs that had Dowland as a main composer. Songs, on the other hand, seemed to be picked almost at random. It was great to hear Michael Chance but there is no Dowland only CD by Michael Chance*. I expect the same with the mezzo (I did not catch her name). When it comes to Deller and Kirkby, there are several each. As this is CD Review, we should have been told about the actual CDs. And after all, the top recommendation was a CD with Dowland. Why then so few instrumental CDs with Dowland were reviewed?

It has been commented often that the current form of BaL may be coming to the end of its use, now that there are so many other forms of ‘having’ music, but one thing that maybe only CDs can do is to present recorded music as a project with printed information. So, I hope the format of collection/project BaL will be given a chance to develop. As someone said on the last week’s BaL thread that a reviewer didn’t come fully formed like Aphrodite on a shell. I expect the same is true with a format.

Oh, and Sting. Surely Dowland’s songs were thought to be ‘art songs’ that needed a refined voice, not necessarily at professional level but quite distinct from ‘natural’ voice for folk or similar songs?

*I think this was the CD.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=CHAN+0538

[Richard Tarleton]

Dover, your mezzo - Catherine King with Jacob Heringman?

As for the solo lute and consort, it looked as if Tess Knighton had decided to review Dowland only CDs. I thought this was rather a pity, as there were numerous excellent CDs that had Dowland as a main composer.

I've got numerous lute recital discs with some Dowland on them, and one highly respected all-Dowland recital by Hopkinson Smith - but thought it not unreasonable that in the context of the programme she stuck to the four complete works sets on offer, three by single artists....Had the programme been longer, I'd certainly have welcomed a mention of Bream's role in bringing Dowland and the lute generally to a wider public - the likes of North and Rooley acknowledge their debt to Bream.

[Sir Velo]

Oh, and Sting. Surely Dowland’s songs were thought to be ‘art songs’ that needed a refined voice, not necessarily at professional level but quite distinct from ‘natural’ voice for folk or similar songs?

Well, Tess Knighton remarked that possibly Sting's voice may well have been nearer to the type of vocal delivery a contemporary audience would have heard (i.e. untrained). Sadly, she left this tantalising observation hanging without offering any evidence for it. I would have thought, however, that there must be some contemporary documentation extant to either support or refute this. It would be interesting whether boarders have any views.

[Richard Tarleton]

Well, Tess Knighton remarked that possibly Sting's voice may well have been nearer to the type of vocal delivery a contemporary audience would have heard (i.e. untrained). Sadly, she left this tantalising observation hanging without offering any evidence for it. I would have thought, however, that there must be some contemporary documentation extant to either support or refute this. It would be interesting whether boarders have any views.

Apologies for hogging the thread - but there's a long section on the origins of the lute song and Dowland's song-books in Diana Poulton's "John Dowland", with extensive contemporary references - ISBN 0-520-04649-8 or 0-520-04687-0. The population of England was about 5 million in 1603 (death of Elizabeth), and the population of London about 300,000. In the absence of concerts, music was performed at court, and in the homes of the nobility and, increasingly, of the gentry. Performance standards at court were presumably high, but domestic performance would have been by untrained voices, and instrumental support by the (amateur) forces available. So Sting might have lost his head at court, but be typical of what you might have heard in a country house.



(This is the picture I would steal from the National Gallery if the alarms failed - Costa's "A Concert", from earlier in the 16th century.)

[doversoul1]

Richard

but thought it not unreasonable that in the context of the programme she stuck to the four complete works sets on offer, three by single artists...

That is the point I was trying to make. I do hope this ‘alternative’ format will take off but it will need to be carefully organized by setting a focus or a theme, and the listeners should be informed what the programme is offering. I think the first half an hour on CD Review where Andrew introduces a group of new CDs can be a good base on which to develop a new format for BaL. After all, this is primarily for the listeners who wish to build a library and not for those who already have one

Sir Velo

Sting's voice may well have been nearer to the type of vocal delivery a contemporary audience would have heard (i.e. untrained).

I think music, both playing an instrument and singing, was part of accomplishment expected of young persons in the kind of households where Dowland’s music was played. Therefore, it seems unlikely that the singers used Sting of Bob Dylan type of earthy, natural or untrained voice. To me, Sting’s Dowland sounds quite unnatural. A kind of reverse of Kiri te Kanawa singing West Side Story.

Ah, Richard has put in the voice of an authority. But I still think the ‘untrained’ voice in the days of Dowland was not quite the same as the kind we associate with the voice of likes of Sting. After all, he is a professional singer of a particular kind.

[ed] I still can’t insert a picture but this is the sort of picture I have in mind.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cambridge-Music-Guide-Stanley-Sadie/dp/0521399424/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358156311&sr=1-1

[Richard Tarleton]

I do hope this ‘alternative’ format will take off but it will need to be carefully organized by setting a focus or a theme, and the listeners should be informed what the programme is offering. I think the first half an hour on CD Review where Andrew introduces a group of new CDs can be a good base on which to develop a new format for BaL.

Absolutely agreed.

After all, this is primarily for the listeners who wish to build a library and not for those who already have one

I just like hearing my prejudices confirmed

[doversoul1]

I just like hearing my prejudices confirmed

I am absolutely sure that that’s what most, if not all, Forum members listen to BaL for.

[BBMmk2]

That box set with The Consort of Musick looks rather good and comprehensive!! :)

[ardcarp]

It has been commented often that the current form of BaL may be coming to the end of its use, now that there are so many other forms of ‘having’ music, but one thing that maybe only CDs can do is to present recorded music as a project with printed information. So, I hope the format of collection/project BaL will be given a chance to develop. As someone said on the last week’s BaL thread that a reviewer didn’t come fully formed like Aphrodite on a shell. I expect the same is true with a format.

I might be getting the wrong end of the stick, but I hope the 'format' remains that of a single 'expert' reviewer (with whom we can agree or not). I just can't abide the pseudo-dialogue we get foisted on us occasionally. No doubt CDs will be superseded at some stage,. But Record Review, CD Review, Download Review, whatever....

[doversoul1]

I might be getting the wrong end of the stick, but I hope the 'format' remains that of a single 'expert' reviewer (with whom we can agree or not). I just can't abide the pseudo-dialogue we get foisted on us occasionally. No doubt CDs will be superseded at some stage,. But Record Review, CD Review, Download Review, whatever....

I am very pleased to tell you that you have got the wrong end of the stick. By ‘the (alternative) format’, I mean a BaL of NOT one work but of a project or a collection CDs. My hope is that if this ‘format’ is introduced, early music CDs will have more chance of being the subject of BaL. And, yes, by one reviewer. ‘Discussion/dialogue’ can be fitted in to the later slot if necessary.

I think a programme like BaL needs to look at CDs as more than just a medium of listening to a piece of music, which can be done by download (I don’t but…) but as a project that offers ‘added value’. Ah well, we’ll see.

[ardcarp]

Thanks for that Dovers....I've twigged.

In pursuit of your laudable aim

to look at CDs as more than just a medium of listening to a piece of music,

have you tried Le Royaume Oublie (sorry, can't do accents), Jordi Savall's epic project? It's more a book than a mere set of CDs and offers many hours of visual as well as aural pleasure.

[doversoul1]

In pursuit of your laudable aim

have you tried Le Royaume Oublie (sorry, can't do accents), Jordi Savall's epic project? It's more a book than a mere set of CDs and offers many hours of visual as well as aural pleasure.

It has been on my to-do list for quite some time but have not quite got round to it.

Incidentally, I think this will be a very good introduction to Dowland songs in a more, er…,uncomplicated way than the official recommendation of the BaL.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Harmonia%2BMundi/HMG50244%252F45