BaL 5.01.13 - Sibelius: Symphony no. 2 in D

[Barbirollians]

I take on board what veris etc have said and I have no issue at all with the youth of the presenter.

I do think it is incumbent , however, to have more explanation as to why a "contender" once selected is being thrown overboard. The RPO/Barbirolli which has. like the Szell , had legendary status over the years had one excerpt played - which was absolutely stunning - and then she threw it overboard with a brief aside I did not hear and never played another extract.

One also might have expected some explanation as to why the LSO Live Davis with its rather disappointing recording quality was preferable to the RCA and Boston versions at least .

I have owned the LSO Live Davis since it came out - it is a very good performance but badly let down by the recording and it was rather odd she did not mention the recording at all .

[LeMartinPecheur]

One also might have expected some explanation as to why the LSO Live Davis with its rather disappointing recording quality was preferable to the RCA and Boston versions at least .

I have owned the LSO Live Davis since it came out - it is a very good performance but badly let down by the recording and it was rather odd she did not mention the recording at all .

Barbirollians; it's a fact that listeners differ hugely in their need for good sound, and in their ability to trade-off poor sound against excellent performance. She did I recall say that the Collins was a very good recording for its day, and that the live Beecham had far from great sound. So she certainly didn't ignore sound quality. Clearly she was less bothered by the Davis sound than you are, but she gave us a good chance at the end to make our own assessment. What more can we expect in 45 mins? We all could and no doubt would do it differently, but could there be any true concensus that we'd done it better?

As I suggested earlier, these boards do not feature very many people like our earlier selves, poised to buy our very first recording and keen not to waste our pocket money or minute pay packet, or even real classical-music novices encountering the work for the first time. Such are very arguably the vital target audience for this programme and we mustn't forget this!

[Barbirollians]

Barbirollians; it's a fact that listeners differ hugely in their need for good sound, and in their ability to trade-off poor sound against excellent performance. She did I recall say that the Collins was a very good recording for its day, and that the live Beecham had far from great sound. So she certainly didn't ignore sound quality. Clearly she was less bothered by the Davis sound than you are, but she gave us a good chance at the end to make our own assessment. What more can we expect in 45 mins? We all could and no doubt would do it differently, but could there be any true concensus that we'd done it better?


As I suggested earlier, these boards do not feature very many people like our earlier selves, poised to buy our very first recording and keen not to waste our pocket money or minute pay packet, or even real classical-music novices encountering the work for the first time. Such are very arguably the vital target audience for this programme and we mustn't forget this!

Even more important then that she recommend the RPO/Barbirolli

What she did not do and for me the central problem with this BAL was give us any real insight into the whittling down process .

[gradus]

Like others I thought the final choice left me underwhelmed whereas the Szell, Beecham and Barbirolli excerpts impressed. But how on earth could anyone come to a conclusion given so many choices beats me. I guess the truth is that, ultimately, its just personal taste.

[LeMartinPecheur]

This http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/sibelius.html is an interesting article on the recording history of Sibelius symphonies. It highlights one key factor in assessing the rightness or wrongness of Kajanus's tempo for 2/i: Sibelius didn't believe in metronome markings!

It also suggests that he was too much pleased by any recording of a work of his to be too prescriptive when answering advance questions from conductors such as Collins, or critical of the results when they emerged. It's likely I guess that he had at least one eye on copyright revenues from recordings - more cigars and brandy!

So the only bad recording would be one that didn't sell at all

[rank_and_file]

ferney

You can see how Jeal got under my skin: I have muddled up the LSO with the LPO and I must remember that both the conductors called Davis do not have an e in the spelling.

I did pick up that Koussevitsky (and Mackerras) used a different version which had the extra timpani beat as the last movement draws to its conclusion - but we only heard the extra stroke once, and I was intrigued why the very clever Miss even introduced it as neither version was a front runner. Perhaps to show us all how much research she had put into the task and, of course, how clever she is?


Il Grande Inquisitor

You have also googled her. I was more intrigued in her musical background which seems very hard to find.


verismissimo

I agree with your post on how BAL is normally presented. What I object to is the way Jeal talked down to her listeners, and how she did not compare the same passages very much, if at all. We just had to accept her sweeping statement on a version and another excerpt later in the piece would be played - often too short for my liking. It was often very difficult to remember she was talking about a four movement symphony. Whatever her choice, I thought this BAL was a shoddy piece of radio.

Just to prove that I am not entirely negative, from the Radio 3 site listen to the podcast of Stephen Plaistow reviewing for BAL Mozart’s Sonata K310 on 24/11/12, Someone who is in complete command of his subject and wears his erudition lightly - in other words, pure quality, and, dare I say it, at the standard the Third Programme would have broadcast.

[Don Petter]

verismissimo

I agree with your post on how BAL is normally presented. What I object to is the way Jeal talked down to her listeners, and how she did not compare the same passages very much, if at all. We just had to accept her sweeping statement on a version and another excerpt later in the piece would be played - often too short for my liking. It was often very difficult to remember she was talking about a four movement symphony. Whatever her choice, I thought this BAL was a shoddy piece of radio.

Just to prove that I am not entirely negative, from the Radio 3 site listen to the podcast of Stephen Plaistow reviewing for BAL Mozart’s Sonata K310 on 24/11/12, Someone who is in complete command of his subject and wears his erudition lightly - in other words, pure quality, and, dare I say it, at the standard the Third Programme would have broadcast.

I agree with your comments on the programme as a whole (and about SP's examples). There will always be omissions of personal favourites, but more explanation and some comparative illustrations would have been welcome. I was amused to hear that while trying to win a brownie point by explaining that 'Decca ffrr' came from submarine detection experiments she decided it should therefore be pronounced with the emphasis 'full-frequency range-recording', which sounded very odd and didn't say much for her actual knowledge of recording history or terminology.

Nonetheless, I was pleased to hear good things said about the Collins, which was the one I first possessed and grew up with. Maybe for that reason I wasn't worried by the subtlety of abnormal drum strokes, which just sounded normal to me!

[LeMartinPecheur]

Nonetheless, I was pleased to hear good things said about the Collins, which was the one I first possessed and grew up with. Maybe for that reason I wasn't worried by the subtlety of abnormal drum strokes, which just sounded normal to me!

Raf: DP has it right: Jeal mentioned the extra timp strokes (introduced by Koussevitsky, tolerated but not approved by Sibelius) in relation to the Collins and Mackerras recordings. Their presence in the former was mentioned when she discarded it on the run-in. She commented that it might have been over-picky to eliminate Collins just for that, but she was happy that Davis would have been her top choice regardless of this.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Nonetheless, I was pleased to hear good things said about the Collins, which was the one I first possessed and grew up with. Maybe for that reason I wasn't worried by the subtlety of abnormal drum strokes, which just sounded normal to me!

It's a subtle, but (IMO) telling point, DonP: in the last 22 bars of the score, Sibelius gives the Timps a pedal D, emphasising the Tonic "we're home!" after the many key changes throughout the work. The rhythm of this pedal (minim - semibreve) is duplicated in the Tuba and lower strings, but every other bar they replace the first D with a G. Koussevitsky (and Collins after him) not only got the Timpanist to duplicate the Tuba etc, but also to change the first minim to a crotchet, so instead of "pom-pommm; pom-pommm", the Timps go "pom-pommm; pompom-pommmm" - with a G on the first syllable of the "pompom". (I so wish these boards could support Music text!)

Does it matter? Well, yes, I think so: played as Sibelius wrote it, the Timps underline the key note of the Symphony at its close (as do the Horns in syncopation an octave higher). The Koussevitsky way "embrashens" the sound: it's exciting in a way, but makes it sound more like Stennhammer than Sibelius.

How do I know all this? Well, I played the Timps in a student performance back in the day. The student conductor wanted the Koussevitsky version and, whilst I disagreed with him, he was the conductor, so followed his request in rehearsal. Come the concert, I got so involved in the Music, I played what Sibelius wrote! I thought the conductor would be furious; instead he said I thought I'd agree now that the alterations were an improvement! Like I said, a very subtle point!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Just imagine a BaL by King Christian II on this work. His in-depth knowledge would be well worth hearing.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Just imagine a BaL by King Christian II on this work. His in-depth knowledge would be well worth hearing.

Oh, yes, please! I suspect the number of recordings he'd attract me to would drain my CD-buying budget, though!

[LeMartinPecheur]

Just imagine a BaL by King Christian II on this work. His in-depth knowledge would be well worth hearing.

But how long would he want, and how long would he get? That is surely the nub of the problem

[Black Swan]

I only have one recording of this work Janssons and the Concertgebow. It has done me well but after today's BAL and reading this thread I am considering buying another recording. Mostly, because I had forgotten how much I love this work. I was surprised about Vanska's omission. I was not surprised that Davis and LPO were the recommendation. I am not sure which one I will buy. I am leaning toward Barbirolli or Vanska.

As for the presenter, I had not so much of a problem with her. I take presenters with a grain of salt and really only want them to present the works and not talk to much. I may be alone but I want to hear what the reviewers have to say but never take their work as gospel.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As for the presenter, I had not so much of a problem with her. I take presenters with a grain of salt and really only want them to present the works and not talk to much. I may be alone but I want to hear what the reviewers have to say but never take their work as gospel.

Yes. It's interesting to hear their views, but in the grand scheme of things, not very important.

[Estelle]

Hello, everyone, from a frequent reader. I too miss King Christian II, with his love of Sibelius, his enthusiasm for his visits to Finland, and his characteristic courtesy. Does anyone know of his situation which might have a bearing on why he no longer posts?