BaL 10.11.12 Schubert's - 4th Symphony "Tragic"

[Karafan]

Well, I shall swim against the tide a little and nail my colours to the mast (if that's not mixing metaphors!) in saying that I always enjoy Richard Wigmore's contributions.

I find him extremely well-versed and eschewing bland, repetitive comments and always injecting a great feeling of erudition worn lightly and personal enthusiasm.

But did anyone else notice at the point of his mentioning the "indecently frisky" slow movement we went into the excerpt with Karajan and the Berliners - and emerged with them conducted by Barenboim! Whoops! ;-)

[Nick Armstrong]

Well, with the name Norrington associated with it, how could it be anything other than 'lightweight' to some? As to 'dated', indeed it sounded quite early 19th century.

I've enjoyed the knockabout re: to HIPP or not to HIPP... but that was the winning shot Bryn! Back of the net!

Somehow I hardly know this 4th Schubert symphony.

Me too saly!! I think the rather inappropriate 'Tragic' nickname has always put me off. Silly me. Anyway, I don't have any recordings of this piece.

Like karafan I enjoyed this survey, probably as a result of my ignorance. I take the points about some inconsistent comments about tempi... I guess they were born of the phenomenon referred to elsewhere above, that RW had heard full performances not just the extracts - his comments would have been more comprehensible when applied to longer extracts or rather complete movements.

It was a revelation to me how the Kertesz made this music foreshadow Brahms's Serenades for Orchestra (of which Kertesz of course was a leading performer) - and Brahms was so close to this piece. No coincidence, surely, that he echoed so much the sunnier sounds and lilt of the Schubert in his own sunny Serenades.

I got a lot out of hearing "how not to do it" (poor old Berlin Philharmonic, lumbering around with Barenboim and HvK ) as well as the better versions. Davis/Dresden left me slightly cold... I rather liked the Abbado in the cheerier bits, even with waldo's wobbly bassoon. I don't get Norrington, with the best will in the world...

[cloughie]

I've enjoyed the knockabout re: to HIPP or not to HIPP... but that was the winning shot Bryn! Back of the net!






Me too saly!! I think the rather inappropriate 'Tragic' nickname has always put me off. Silly me. Anyway, I don't have any recordings of this piece.

Like karafan I enjoyed this survey, probably as a result of my ignorance. I take the points about some inconsistent comments about tempi... I guess they were born of the phenomenon referred to elsewhere above, that RW had heard full performances not just the extracts - his comments would have been more comprehensible when applied to longer extracts or rather complete movements.

It was a revelation to me how the Kertesz made this music foreshadow Brahms's Serenades for Orchestra (of which Kertesz of course was a leading performer) - and Brahms was so close to this piece. No coincidence, surely, that he echoed so much the sunnier sounds and lilt of the Schubert in his own sunny Serenades.

I got a lot out of hearing "how not to do it" (poor old Berlin Philharmonic, lumbering around with Barenboim and HvK ) as well as the better versions. Davis/Dresden left me slightly cold... I rather liked the Abbado in the cheerier bits, even with waldo's wobbly bassoon. I don't get Norrington, with the best will in the world...

Bohm and Maazel make the BPO smile a bit more!

[Karafan]

Bohm and Maazel make the BPO smile a bit more!

Yes, poor old Böhm got nary a mention did he? Nice old set, that...

[jayne lee wilson]

Odd about the title isn't it? Whenever some presenter or commentator calls it "unsuitable" or puzzling, I think well, it's at least quite a dark piece for much of its length; the central episode of the slow movement, and the scherzo, are both pretty stern, and the ending is defiant rather than triumphant, the Schubertian ambiguity there to the last note.
In November IRR Nigel Simeone seems to nail it:

"It's a kind of latter-day sturm und drang symphony, drawing inspiration from some of the darker works of Haydn and Mozart..."

I don't recall seeing any other reviewer or critic make that seemingly obvious connection!

[verismissimo]

"It's a kind of latter-day sturm und drang symphony, drawing inspiration from some of the darker works of Haydn and Mozart..."

Seems to me the line goes Haydn, Schubert, Bruckner. No?

[LeMartinPecheur]

Odd about the title isn't it? Whenever some presenter or commentator calls it "unsuitable" or puzzling, I think well, it's at least quite a dark piece for much of its length; the central episode of the slow movement, and the scherzo, are both pretty stern, and the ending is defiant rather than triumphant, the Schubertian ambiguity there to the last note.
In November IRR Nigel Simeone seems to nail it:

"It's a kind of latter-day sturm und drang symphony, drawing inspiration from some of the darker works of Haydn and Mozart..."

I don't recall seeing any other reviewer or critic make that seemingly obvious connection!

IIRC Richard Wigmore made this connection with Sturm und Drang in the review.

[makropulos]

Seems to me the line goes Haydn, Schubert, Bruckner. No?

I reckon that's only one of several lines to and from Schubert! What about the very explicit influence of Beethoven on Schubert's C minor Piano Sonata, for instance (it begins with a paraphrase of the C minor Variations WoO 80). Or Schumann's huge admiration for Schubert, and Schubert's influence on Brahms and Dvorak. "Don Giovanni" was a work that Schubert certainly knew well, and one that can be heard echoed in several of his pieces. And so on...

[Karafan]

But did anyone else notice at the point of his mentioning the "indecently frisky" slow movement we went into the excerpt with Karajan and the Berliners - and emerged with them conducted by Barenboim! Whoops! ;-)

Whoops, indeed - mea culpa! I was relistening this morning and was quite in error: we didn't switch from Herbie to Baz at all. (Note to self: get ears syringed)

[LeMartinPecheur]

I reckon that's only one of several lines to and from Schubert! What about the very explicit influence of Beethoven on Schubert's C minor Piano Sonata, for instance (it begins with a paraphrase of the C minor Variations WoO 80). Or Schumann's huge admiration for Schubert, and Schubert's influence on Brahms and Dvorak. "Don Giovanni" was a work that Schubert certainly knew well, and one that can be heard echoed in several of his pieces. And so on...

For barefaced theft from LvB's piano oeuvre surely there's nothing to beat Mendelssohn's Sonata Op6!

[Bryn]

Perhaps I simply missed a reference to it, but I don't recall any mention in the programme to the very soon to be re-issued Anima Eterna/Immerseel survey of the Schubert Symphonies (originally released on the Sony label but now on Zig Zag). Just snapped up a set from an amazon.fr marketplace vendor for £19.46 including p&p to U.K. Best price now seems to be £23 from amazon.co.uk.

[Karafan]

Perhaps I simply missed a reference to it, but I don't recall any mention in the programme to the very soon to be re-issued Anima Eterna/Immerseel survey of the Schubert Symphonies (originally released on the Sony label but now on Zig Zag). Just snapped up a set from an amazon.fr marketplace vendor for £19.46 including p&p to U.K. Best price now seems to be £23 from amazon.co.uk.

Indeed. And what about poor old Frans Bruggen..... That is a good HIP set.

K.

[Bryn]

Indeed. And what about poor old Frans Bruggen..... That is a good HIP set.

K.

I note that it costs less to buy the FLACs from Decca Classics than it does the mp3s of the set from amazon.co.uk. I think that is known as a no brainer in the modern argot.