BaL 20.10.12 - Schumann's Etudes symphoniques

[amateur51]

I'm sorry that Cortot was only given a short quote - for sheer poetry that's the one for me.

The earlier late 1920s recording seems to be the Cortot recording to get. It's wonderfully full of imagination and flexibility and daring.

http://www.mdt.co.uk/cortot-alfred-the-schumann-recordings-hmv-recordings-1927-1935-andromeda-3cds.html

November sees the launch of a 40CD Cortot Anniversary edition boxed set, with original recordings re-mastered (it says)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Anniversary-Edition-Alfred-Cortot/dp/B008V1IR4Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350736172&sr=8-1

[Don Petter]

The earlier late 1920s recording seems to be the Cortot recording to get. It's wonderfully full of imagination and flexibility and daring.

http://www.mdt.co.uk/cortot-alfred-the-schumann-recordings-hmv-recordings-1927-1935-andromeda-3cds.html

November sees the launch of a 40CD Cortot Anniversary edition boxed set, with original recordings re-mastered (it says)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Annivers...0736172&sr=8-1

The 1929 performance (as currently on Utube, and in the MDT set) does seem to me preferable to the 1953 one issued on the HMV LP. I don't think the latter is currently available anyway, though it may be in the expected box set?

[Alison]

Has the winning version ever received so little comment on the Radio 3 forum ?

[gradus]

I'm pleading guilty to enthusiasm for the five posthumous studies reinstated by Brahms, if indeed it is these and not the 2 missing from an earlier edition that are being referred to by Le Martin Pecheur earlier in the thread. The reviewer made the point that composers in general are not always the best judges of their music after an excerpt was played from Cortot's recording of the fourth of the five and in this case I certainly agree with her. The five posthumous studiesy have always seemed to me inspired pieces and as the reviewer commented they give the player the opportunity to place them where they please. Some choices are to my ear more pleasing than others but the most interesting I've heard was in a performance by Ingrid Fliter that gave Eusebius the last word and very appealing it was too.

[Barbirollians]

What won ? I was on route to Ascot - perahia for me !

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The reviewer made the point that composers in general are not always the best judges of their music

Oh, lor'; she didn't, did she? I didn't catch the "in general"- I thought she'd said that "some"are "not always the best" blah-di-blah-di-yakety-yak (I paraphrase) - which was stupid enough! Who, I wondered, does she think is "the best judge"? The "performer(s)? Surely (heavens forfend!) not the/a critic?!

You are absolutely right: the excised studies are "inspired" and wonderful pieces that deserve their place in the repertoire, but as encores or afterthoughts to the great work. Composers in the tradition in which Schumann wrote weren't just concerned with creating lovely-sounding Music, but with the timing and placing of the events within a work - if a "lovely"/"wonderful"/"inspired" section upset the balance of the whole work, out it went - reluctantly, regretfully, but ruthlessly. For a performer to pick and chose which of the excised pieces to include (or, for that matter, which, if any of the "official" studies to miss out) is to present a different work from the one Schumann intended - as you suggest by your reference to the Filter (!) performance: giving Eusebius the last word isn't what Schumann decided was what the composition was about: it isn't "Schumanns's Etudes Symphoniques"* but "Schumann/Filter's" - and it takes the work out of the tradition in which the composer identified himself and puts him as a precursor of Cage, Feldman, Brown, Wolff & Tenney. (And, of course, gives the aesthetic of those composers a larger historical perspective that they probably imagined!)

EDIT: * = more Etudes Fantastiques than Etudes Symphoniques, mebbe?

[amateur51]

Oh, lor'; she didn't, did she? I didn't catch the "in general"- I thought she'd said that "some"are "not always the best" blah-di-blah-di-yakety-yak (I paraphrase) - which was stupid enough! Who, I wondered, does she think is "the best judge"? The "performer(s)? Surely (heavens forfend!) not the/a critic?!

You are absolutely right: the excised studies are "inspired" and wonderful pieces that deserve their place in the repertoire, but as encores or afterthoughts to the great work. Composers in the tradition in which Schumann wrote weren't just concerned with creating lovely-sounding Music, but with the timing and placing of the events within a work - if a "lovely"/"wonderful"/"inspired" section upset the balance of the whole work, out it went - reluctantly, regretfully, but ruthlessly. For a performer to pick and chose which of the excised pieces to include (or, for that matter, which, if any of the "official" studies to miss out) is to present a different work from the one Schumann intended - as you suggest by your reference to the Filter (!) performance: giving Eusebius the last word isn't what Schumann decided was what the composition was about: it isn't "Schumanns's Etudes Symphoniques" but "Schumann/Filter's" - and it takes the work out of the tradition in which the composer identified himself and puts him as a precursor of Cage, Feldman, Brown, Wolff & Tenney. (And, of course, gives the aesthetic of those composers a larger historical perspective that they probably imagined!)

Tis Fliter, ferney - good point tho'!

[silvestrione]

Oh, lor'; she didn't, did she? I didn't catch the "in general"- I thought she'd said that "some"are "not always the best" blah-di-blah-di-yakety-yak (I paraphrase) - which was stupid enough! Who, I wondered, does she think is "the best judge"? The "performer(s)? Surely (heavens forfend!) not the/a critic?!

You are absolutely right: the excised studies are "inspired" and wonderful pieces that deserve their place in the repertoire, but as encores or afterthoughts to the great work. Composers in the tradition in which Schumann wrote weren't just concerned with creating lovely-sounding Music, but with the timing and placing of the events within a work - if a "lovely"/"wonderful"/"inspired" section upset the balance of the whole work, out it went - reluctantly, regretfully, but ruthlessly. For a performer to pick and chose which of the excised pieces to include (or, for that matter, which, if any of the "official" studies to miss out) is to present a different work from the one Schumann intended - as you suggest by your reference to the Filter (!) performance: giving Eusebius the last word isn't what Schumann decided was what the composition was about: it isn't "Schumanns's Etudes Symphoniques"* but "Schumann/Filter's" - and it takes the work out of the tradition in which the composer identified himself and puts him as a precursor of Cage, Feldman, Brown, Wolff & Tenney. (And, of course, gives the aesthetic of those composers a larger historical perspective that they probably imagined!)

EDIT: * = more Etudes Fantastiques than Etudes Symphoniques, mebbe?

Yes, well-argued Ferney, even though I disagree! I am puzzled at myself really....have no problem with pianists interfering with the composer's considered thoughts in this Schumann (or in Liszt's Pensee des Morts, where Brendel makes his own version using part of an earlier version replaced by Liszt), but know I would think it sacrilege if someone played Beethoven's Waldstein with the Andante Favori instead of the later slow movement Beethoven replaced it with! (but then there's the Grosse Fugue issue...)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Tis Fliter, ferney

<doh>, so it is! I really shouldn't've gone to Specsavers!

[Barbirollians]

I am always amazed when there are discussions on here after the programme and nobody mentions the winner !!!

It was a perusal of the BBC website tells me - a short lived Decca CD by Alexander Romanovsky coupled with Brahms Paganini Variations.

Despite being released in 2009 it is now only available as a download .

[John Shelton]

Despite being released in 2009 it is now only available as a download.

If you have no ethical objections to Amazon, or can surmount those objections, they will do you a silver copy http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/..._ya_os_product

[BBMmk2]

What won ? I was on route to Ascot - perahia for me !

Any ideas be most welcome from me to!!

[amateur51]

I am always amazed when there are discussions on here after the programme and nobody mentions the winner !!!

It was a perusal of the BBC website tells me - a short lived Decca CD by Alexander Romanovsky coupled with Brahms Paganini Variations.

Despite being released in 2009 it is now only available as a download .

Has anyone heard his CD recording of Rachmaninov Etudes-Tableaux & Corelli vaiations?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Etudes-Tableaux-op-39-Variations-theme-Corelli/dp/B002PW43TK/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__img_b/280-6108870-2426935

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

sounded good this am on EC with RC etc ...

[gradus]

I have just found some concert notes by Claudio Arrau from the late 70's about the Symphonic Studies or Etudes Symphonique as he called them. As he was such a fine Schumann interpreter I thought others might enjoy reading his thoughts, albeit brief, on the piece.
'Etuden im Orchestercharakter von Eusebius und Florestan' was Schumann's first title for the Symphonic Studies op 13. It has a twofold significance, indicating the orchestral fullness of tone and colour which the piano writing seeks to achieve, and also the romantic duality of the 'two souls in Schumann's breast', personified in the two names - Eusebius, the dreamer and Florestan, the impetuous romantic.
Originally Schumann wrote17 variations, but when the work was published, he deleted five of them, probably on the advice of Clara (who always wanted him to 'write more like Mendelssohn'). The five deleted ones happen to be among Schumann's greatest inspirations, all pertaining to Eusebius. Further changes were made in later editions. In the collected edition of Schumann's works which was issued after his death, Brahms, the editor, fortunately rescued the five extra variations for posterity.
Pianists didn't begin to includethe five extra variations until Cortot came out with his edition in the 20's. he interpolated them into the body of the work,which is the only way to do it that makes any sense. To play them as a separate entity is another story altogether.
My interpretations differ from Cortot's and differ today from my 1972 recording on Philips records. It is an attempt to reconstruct Schumann's original inspiration. It changes the entire character of the work. Suddenly the work is no longer a mere virtuoso display piece bit a grand Variations work,almost as monumental in scope as the Diabelli Variations.
C.A.'
However, Arrau ended his performance with Florestan not Eusebius - Allegro Brillante!