BaL 26.05.12/25.02.23 - Messiaen: Turangalila Symphony

[Bryn]

You are very forgiving over 'streamlined articulation'. What does that even mean, unless it implies a sort of pointillist skating over the surface? It's dangerous to quote Gramophone as some sort of holy writ, in these days where sounding authoritative has become more important than saying anything worthwhile. The writers aren't given the space for that, so 'streamlined articulation' is certainly the watchword for them.

Given my wearied attitude to this particular work, I haven't heard it live for years, so shouldn't really be talking about it! But certainly, the Messiaen works I have heard live recently seem to taken more slowly, rather than the reverse. The last Quartet for the End of Time I attended really did come over as a sort of trial run for eternity.

Oh, I basically read "streamlined articulation" to equate, effectively, with tighter ensemble.

[jayne lee wilson]

You are very forgiving over 'streamlined articulation'. What does that even mean, unless it implies a sort of pointillist skating over the surface? It's dangerous to quote Gramophone as some sort of holy writ, in these days where sounding authoritative has become more important than saying anything worthwhile. The writers aren't given the space for that, so 'streamlined articulation' is certainly the watchword for them.

Given my wearied attitude to this particular work, I haven't heard it live for years, so shouldn't really be talking about it! But certainly, the Messiaen works I have heard live recently seem to taken more slowly, rather than the reverse. The last Quartet for the End of Time I attended really did come over as a sort of trial run for eternity.

I never came anywhere near such an attitude ("holy writ"...oh, really...) and in any case the Gutman review is indeed long and detailed. See my #234 and #236 for clarification. How unfortunate that some here want to pass judgement without even having read the review for themselves; in which every word is made to count by one of the G's better writers.
As for "these days", the original review was 30 years ago...11/93. .
(Gutman also did the first 7/1999 G-Collection Survey, so he was evidently very familiar with the recorded catalogue).

After such repeated, seemingly careless or wilful misreading of my own posts, I don't wish to repeat myself or lead to Gutman's misrepresentation any further so the best thing is to (Once again...) give the references:
11/93 for the original DG review, Aw/2008 for the full-length Collection Survey by PC. So anyone can seek them out and read the truth of those opinions for themselves.
One may of course find later comparisons in reviews of more recent releases.

[Barbirollians]

I never came anywhere near such an attitude ("holy writ"...oh, really...) and in any case the Gutman review is indeed long and detailed. See my #234 and #236 for clarification. How unfortunate that some here want to pass judgement without even having read the review for themselves; in which every word is made to count by one of the G's better writers.
As for "these days", the original review was 30 years ago...11/93. .
(Gutman also did the first 7/1999 G-Collection Survey, so he was evidently very familiar with the recorded catalogue).

After such repeated, seemingly careless or wilful misreading of my own posts, I don't wish to repeat myself or lead to Gutman's misrepresentation any further so the best thing is to (Once again...) give the references:
11/93 for the original DG review, Aw/2008 for the full-length Collection Survey by PC. So anyone can seek them out and read the truth of those opinions for themselves.
One may of course find later comparisons in reviews of more recent releases.

After reading those Gramophobe reviews I thought I would rather like to hear the Ozawa.

[jayne lee wilson]

As for "streamlined articulation".....(vide #236, #240 et seq.)

“Offering low resistance to flow” - i.e smooth (rather than rough-edged or angular), priority to the musical line as opposed to spikier, more emphatically rhythmical or locally disordered; with a suggestion of relatively swift tempi.
Secondarily - simpler, more efficient as opposed to (say) fussy. Sleek - or slick.

I fail to see anything problematic in the contextual use of “streamlined” here.

[Bryn]

After reading those Gramophobe reviews I thought I would rather like to hear the Ozawa.

I recall listening to a live Boston performance under Ozawa via Youtube's admittedly low-audio-definition resource. I think it a preferable performance to the 'studio' one issued by RCA. When it comes to the studio recording, avoid the French re-issue in a double CD album, the later single disc release has a better transfer.

[mikealdren]

Isn't is sad that we have to avoid certain issues because they are badly transferred, the major companies are very guilty in this respect and sometimes don't even choose the best from their back catalogue when issuing box sets.

[HighlandDougie]

The DVD-A of the Previn is a joy, it also has DVD-V options offering 2-channel stereo and Dolby Digital surround.



Previn's tempi are a little leisurely, in general.

Oh, and http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...069#post167069

Inspired by Bryn's enthusiasm, I've finally managed to track down a reasonably priced copy of the DVD-A (10 euros). The sound quality on the audio side of the disc is distinctly superior to the re-mastered CD - which I bought after the BaL for not a lot - so I've been annoying TOH with very loud Messiaen. I'm not sure that the Previn would be my BaL choice (I'll stick to Mena) but, slight glitziness aside, it makes a wonderfully played noise, if nothing else. And is hugely enjoyable, albeit I rather think that, like other large scale works such as "Gürrelieder", experiencing it in the flesh is an important way of understanding its complexities.

[Barbirollians]

The Ozawa has arrived looking forward to giving it a spin tomorrow.

[Barbirollians]

Oops it took me five months but difficult not to be blue. Away by the fresh,wild nature of this performances with a spectacularly untamed ondes martenot and bright idiomatic piano . My favourite now I think just edging Previn and Chung.

[oliver sudden]

The Vega LPs came with an additional 10" disc with an interview between Messiaen and Claude Samuel. In that, Messiaen cites Villa-Lobos as an influence. Samuel's response is "Villa-Lobos? Tien, tien!"

Anyone know if there’s a specific Villa-Lobos piece involved? I do find there’s often a specific source for Messiaen’s influences. The Simeone/Hill book quotes lots of diary entries which basically boil down to ‘pinch this’

[oliver sudden]

I’ve spun the 1950 Désormière performance here a couple of times in the last couple of days and good lord that one sizzles. The CD it’s on is 77’ long but that’s including a 12’ interview! (With various luminaries of the time including Auric and Honegger. And they are not all fans )

The tempi are pretty headlong of course. Still, I can’t think of another recording where the movements are so clearly differentiated and the overall form is so convincing. Messiaen revised the speeds downwards by quite some distance towards the end of his life, changing them in the published score, but somehow I can’t make myself agree with him.