BaL 26.05.12/25.02.23 - Messiaen: Turangalila Symphony

[Ein Heldenleben]

I know of the dangers - in my teens I used to repair TVs which were also AC/DC power - a live chassis always needed to be checked for - in those days the neon screwdriver was used.

Or if feeling brave tap with knuckle..

[kernelbogey]

Even worse if you're Mesaiaen about.....

Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum?

[vinteuil]

.

- and Éclairs sur l'Au-Delà... lead to le Tombeau Resplendissant

[Barbirollians]

Gillian Moore is surely riding her luck with the modern recording police at BAL - Previn from 1975 and Bruno Walter 1961 in Mahler 1 ( both great choices)

[RichardB]

Gillian Moore is surely riding her luck with the modern recording police at BAL - Previn from 1975 and Bruno Walter 1961 in Mahler 1 ( both great choices)

I didn't like the Previn recording when it came out, and I really don't see how it can be thought of as preferable (when "building a library", that is to say from a position of perhaps not having heard the work before) to, say, Nagano, which I wouldn't put down at all to the latter being a more modern recording.

[Bryn]

I didn't like the Previn recording when it came out, and I really don't see how it can be thought of as preferable (when "building a library", that is to say from a position of perhaps not having heard the work before) to, say, Nagano, which I wouldn't put down at all to the latter being a more modern recording.

I'm confused. Back in post #135 you said that you did not think you had ever heard the Previn.

[RichardB]

I'm confused. Back in post #135 you said that you did not think you had ever heard the Previn.

Yes, I know. I listened to it again a few days ago and my memory was jogged. I recalled that I found it rhythmically pedestrian.

[Bryn]

Yes, I know. I listened to it again a few days ago and my memory was jogged. I recalled that I found it rhythmically pedestrian.

Certainly with you regarding tempi. as I mentioned in #133. Funnily enough, I seem to recall the Gramophone review of the Chailly thought it rather too fast, and suggested that this was something new in the performance history. Absolute rubbish, as the European premiere under Désormière or the Rosbaud, recorded the following year and referenced by Moore, plus the Le Roux of 1962, demonstrate.

[jayne lee wilson]

Certainly with you regarding tempi. as I mentioned in #133. Funnily enough, I seem to recall the Gramophone review of the Chailly thought it rather too fast, and suggested that this was something new in the performance history. Absolute rubbish, as the European premiere under Désormière or the Rosbaud, recorded the following year and referenced by Moore, plus the Le Roux of 1962, demonstrate.

That's not quite accurate or fair to the writers.

DSG (11/93) mentions the "trend towards faster speeds" among other recordings, and Chailly as quick in some sections, but more in the context of stunning articulation-at-speed (with the great RCOA, compared to earlier less technically secure performances) and of course fitting on a single CD (77'). As usual from DSG, this is a very nuanced and detailed comparative review, across at least 5 other versions.

Certainly no mention of the tempi being excessive. The Aw/88 Collection piece doesn't overstate this either (noting Rosbaud as the quickest in the survey) and both make it a top recommend - which it certainly is. As I referenced above, the Aw/88 Survey (PC) had Ozawa, Previn, Chailly and Nagano - the latter as the ultimate choice (should you want one).

[Bryn]

That's not quite accurate or fair to the writers.

DSG (11/93) mentions the "trend towards faster speeds" among other recordings, and Chailly as quick in some sections, but more in the context of stunning articulation-at-speed (with the great RCOA, compared to earlier less technically secure performances) and of course fitting on a single CD (77'). As usual from DSG, this is a very nuanced and detailed comparative review, across at least 5 other versions.

Certainly no mention of the tempi being excessive. The Aw/88 Collection piece doesn't overstate this either (noting Rosbaud as the quickest in the survey) and both make it a top recommend - which it certainly is. As I referenced above, the Aw/88 Survey (PC) had Ozawa, Previn, Chailly and Nagano - the latter as the ultimate choice (should you want one).

I had purchased the CD version of the Chailly before seeing the Gramophone review (I later got the SACD but was disappointed with the surround mix). I was very taken with Chailly's approach (the first to use the revised score, even before it was published). The claim of a trend of faster performance was simply wrong. To me, it certainly read as a negative criticism of the Chaiily. Early recordings, up to and including the Le Roux of 1962 were all of shorter duration.

[jayne lee wilson]

I had purchased the CD version of the Chailly before seeing the Gramophone review (I later got the SACD but was disappointed with the surround mix). I was very taken with Chailly's approach (the first to use the revised score, even before it was published). The claim of a trend of faster performance was simply wrong. To me, it certainly read as a negative criticism of the Chaiily. Early recordings, up to and including the Le Roux of 1962 were all of shorter duration.

"These new contenders continue the trend to streamlined articulation and faster speeds" was his comment, in the light of his recent listening.

So as I made clear in para 1 of post #234, he wasn't wrong at all, just reporting his latest experiences. And - as I have just made clear - slight reservations aside, there is no adverse criticism of Chailly, certainly NOT of his tempi choices.

(Or in the survey article either....I have them both before me.)

[Maclintick]

As I referenced above, the Aw/88 Survey (PC) had Ozawa, Previn, Chailly and Nagano - the latter as the ultimate choice (should you want one).

Just listened to the BPO/Aimard/Nagano in a 16/44.1 download from Presto. Sumptuously played & well-recorded, with an excellent balance on Aimard, but with the ondes restrained and more embedded in the texture than I remember from live performances with the instrument in pole position, as it were . Perhaps the composer modified his view of its relative prominence in later years -- something Kent Nagano would have been aware of for this performance. I enjoyed Gillian Moore's survey, but I don't think she mentioned the 1990 revisions which of course wouldn't register in Previn's account from the 1970s.

[RichardB]

more embedded in the texture than I remember from live performances with the instrument in pole position, as it were . Perhaps the composer modified his view of its relative prominence in later years

How prominent it sounds, given that the sound is so directional (coming from loudspeakers), depends to a great degree on where you're sitting. (Many later recordings have it very prominent indeed.)

[Bryn]

"These new contenders continue the trend to streamlined articulation and faster speeds" was his comment, in the light of his recent listening.

So as I made clear in para 1 of post #234, he wasn't wrong at all, just reporting his latest experiences. And - as I have just made very clear! - there is NO adverse criticism of Chailly at all, certainly NOT of his tempi choices.

(Or in the survey article either....I have them both before me.)

"streamlined articulation", is fine, but what is the evidence for the assertion of a trend to faster speeds? The performances I attended in the years leading up to the release of the Chailly recording exhibited the very opposite tendency. Previn was by no means alone in taking a more leisurely road. It is in that context that I read the review at the time. It made me doubt the author's familiarity with the work's performance history.

[Master Jacques]

"streamlined articulation", is fine, but what is the evidence for the assertion of a trend to faster speeds? The performances I attended in the years leading up to the release of the Chailly recording exhibited the very opposite tendency. Previn was by no means alone in taking a more leisurely road. It is in that context that I read the review at the time. It made me doubt the author's familiarity with the work's performance history.

You are very forgiving over 'streamlined articulation'. What does that even mean, unless it implies a sort of pointillist skating over the surface? It's dangerous to quote Gramophone as some sort of holy writ, in these days where sounding authoritative has become more important than saying anything worthwhile. The writers aren't given the space for that, so 'streamlined articulation' is certainly the watchword for them.

Given my wearied attitude to this particular work, I haven't heard it live for years, so shouldn't really be talking about it! But certainly, the Messiaen works I have heard live recently seem to taken more slowly, rather than the reverse. The last Quartet for the End of Time I attended really did come over as a sort of trial run for eternity.