BaL 26.05.12/25.02.23 - Messiaen: Turangalila Symphony

[jayne lee wilson]

Nail and head! The art of the recording engineer must allow for a broad range of listening conditions, not just the select few for whom what they're listening on can seem more crucial than what they're listening to. If we're not careful, that can produce the most useless kind of sterile one-upmanship in place of debate.

These two gargantuan Messiaen scores certainly present very different challenges in the hall and on disc, where the visual and spacial elements cannot be part of the equation. It's certainly easier to appreciate them in the hall. At home (when we're not on the road!) most of us have to experience these recordings in smallish rooms, using standard hi-fi equipment and possibly headphones. So before we start indulging in delicious hieratics, we have to be able to hear - as near as possible - what Messiaen wrote. That's the bottom line.

Edit: it's perhaps a pity that Turangalila doesn't seem to be available to watch on DVD, which could well enhance the work for many people. As someone for whom, unfortunately, the work has "gone cold", part of my problem has been never being able to recapture my first experience of it, which was live at the Free Trade Hall, Hallé, Skrowaczewski, rather a long time ago!

1) How does the engineer do that? We recall that Bob Dylan and many others complained recently about dynamic and data compression ruining their (re-)releases, produced like so many commercial releases with cheap download/mobile/car/radio playback in mind....
If you feel that Classical Music should be so treated, just how low do you want the common sonic denominator to go?

2) If we "have to be able to hear - as near as possible - what Messiaen wrote" surely the more capable the equipment, the closer we will get? Seems a very obvious point to me, especially since the pioneers of stereo in the 1950s, such as Lewis Layton and Richard Mohr, would explicitly say they were trying to create a simulacrum of the concert hall in your listening room. This began a wonderful tradition of Stereo Classical Recording which was certainly not founded or established by "allowing for a broad range".
I'm surprised to have to say all this on such a forum and I dread to think how Mohr and Layton, Wilkinson and Gerhardt, Suff and Petry, Tony Faulkner, etc etc, would react to some recent comments here.

Messiaen's Turangalîla-Symphonie, of course, is precisely the very demanding type of orchestral music that truly needs high quality equipment (in power, naturalness, resolution etc) to reproduce all of its essential characteristics in a domestic setting (from thunderous bass drums to....whisper-soft triangles...).
Of course a larger room, with such a system, will provide more suitable conditions for that.
Why shouldn't engineers and producers aim to create the best possible sound, as close to the sound in the hall or studio, that they can? The listener can at least aspire to recreate it as best they can, and hope to upgrade to greater accuracy, power and glory later on. Why do you think there is a thriving niche market in vintage and 2ndhand highend equipment today? Including Open Reel Tape and Valve Amps?
Because some people still love music enough, to want it to sound as natural, truthful and beautiful as possible.

Finally (!) here's Robert Von Bahr of BIS, from a MusicWeb interview with Dave Billinge in 9/2003....(the works mentioned are from the Wigglesworth DSCH Cycle)...

"... had any people commented on the astounding dynamic range achieved in his CDs of Nos.7 and 10 (BIS CD 873 and 973/4) Did his listeners appreciate this much reality?

His parting shot left me without any need to find a way of finishing this report so I would like to thank Robert von Bahr very much indeed for his long and fascinating responses to my questions.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you BIS, 30 Years Young!!

Von Bahr: Yes, we will complete the Shostakovich cycle, but not in the UK. Yes, we get a fair share of comments, many of which admittedly complain that the listener has to sit with the hand on the volume knob. For me that is utterly uninteresting. We don't create - we reproduce what Shostakovich wrote and how Mark interprets it, that's all. If someone doesn't like reality, well, there are enough labels who provide nicely balanced, easy-on-the-ear, no-risk mezzo-piano to mezzo-forte wall-paper recordings. Their names are not BIS, of that I can assure you!"

[Bryn]

With you all the way on #196, including how open and communicative Robert von Bahr is. My correspondence with BIS regarding their survey of the works of Jon Leifs has always included very helpful replies from the man himself. On the dynamic range of recordings, I am reminded of the original specification for DAB. It included the provision of a facility to compress the dynamic range within the receiver. However, very, very few tuner manufacturers actually stuck to that aspect of the spec. Simple compression circuitry would not add that much to the production and retail costs of domestic radios, allowing those who currently feel the need to repeatedly adjust the gain level of their receivers.

As something of an afterthought, many multi-channel home receivers (home cinema tuner/amps, if you will) come with a range of synthesised acoustic environments. I occasionally have a bit of fun investigating their impact. The Yamaha receiver I am currently using with my living room television has the options:

"Chamber", "Cellar Club", "The Roxy Theatre", 2The Bottom Line", "Music Video", "Hall in Munich", and Hall in Vienna". Some employ 2 channels, some 4 and others all 6.

[Bryn]

Richard, not sure if this has already been answered, but in case not, I can report re the metronome marks for Éclairs that they are not Messiaen's own: early hire scores (before the score was engraved) were facsimiles of Messiaen's autograph full score and the metronome marks are added in Loriod's hand. I asked her about this, and she said they were fixed during rehearsals for the NY premiere. Apparently it was OM's usual practice to finalise metronome marks when he was hearing the piece played –so there are none by him on the Éclairs score as if was first performed posthumously. Hope that makes some kind of sense. It also makes me wonder about the authority of them in this particular piece. Because, as you say, Messiaen didn't make mistakes with his tempo indications –even if he sometimes changed his mind (aren't there some differences in the two scores of Turangalîla? –I can't remember, and don't have the revised score to hand).

Thank you, 'makropulos', I well recall how effective I found the tempi adopted by Kent Nagano in his LSO UK premiere of Éclairs sur l'Au-Delà.... They differed considerably from those indicated by Mme. Loriod-Messiaen. The relative tempi of the various movements quite starkly varied in comparison.

[makropulos]

Thank you, 'makropulos', I well recall how effective I found the tempi adopted by Kent Nagano in his LSO UK premiere of Éclairs sur l'Au-Delà.... They differed considerably from those indicated by Mme. Loriod-Messiaen. The relative tempi of the various movements quite starkly varied in comparison.

Very much agree with you about Nagano's LSO performance –at the time everything felt just right. I have a recording of that performance somewhere (just not sure). Of the available recordings, I think my favourite is probably Chung but there are several others that are pretty good (the only one I find rather disappointing is Cambreling, but perhaps I just heard it on a bad day).

[RichardB]

Richard, not sure if this has already been answered, but in case not, I can report re the metronome marks for Éclairs that they are not Messiaen's own: early hire scores (before the score was engraved) were facsimiles of Messiaen's autograph full score and the metronome marks are added in Loriod's hand. I asked her about this, and she said they were fixed during rehearsals for the NY premiere. Apparently it was OM's usual practice to finalise metronome marks when he was hearing the piece played –so there are none by him on the Éclairs score as if was first performed posthumously. Hope that makes some kind of sense. It also makes me wonder about the authority of them in this particular piece. Because, as you say, Messiaen didn't make mistakes with his tempo indications –even if he sometimes changed his mind (aren't there some differences in the two scores of Turangalîla? –I can't remember, and don't have the revised score to hand).

Many thanks for this answer, which puts everything in a different "light" to be sure.

My idea about the last movement of Éclairs is that it should sound a bit more like an organ (or a bit more like the first movement of the same work), that there shouldn't be any particular accentuation (or pauses) over and above those indicated in the score, and that the triangle trio should be continuously audible. My feeling was that Cambreling's recording comes closer than others to this kind of approach, even if not much closer, but it seems that Yvonne Loriod had different ideas anyway, and the performing tradition emanating from Messiaen himself and his inner circle of interpreters is obviously a powerfully influential factor (in all his works), or at least it has been up until now. I wouldn't wish to go against her opinion of how it should sound, although (unfortunately for me...) that's not how it sounds to me when I look at the score!

[ardcarp]

Even more excited about tomorrow's Turangalila BAL than I was about last week's Mozart's Dissonance SQ. I hope my expectations are fulfilled this time.
M's Symphonie is the same age as me, and I remember being absolutely blown away on my first hearing (probably aged 12) by its new and exciting harmonic language. Parts of it have been an ear-worm ever since.

Sorry this isn't a learned post. I just wanted the item to be top of the BAL list!

[Barbirollians]

Even more excited about tomorrow's Turangalila BAL than I was about last week's Mozart's Dissonance SQ. I hope my expectations are fulfilled this time.
M's Symphonie is the same age as me, and I remember being absolutely blown away on my first hearing (probably aged 12) by its new and exciting harmonic language. Parts of it have been an ear-worm ever since.

Sorry this isn't a learned post. I just wanted the item to be top of the BAL list!

I have always rather liked Gillian Moore’s BALs so hope she does this justice tomorrow.

[Maclintick]

I have always rather liked Gillian Moore’s BALs so hope she does this justice tomorrow.

Likewise, I've always thought GM's BALs make interesting listening. Looking forward, I realise I don't have a recording of Turangalila despite having heard it several times in the concert hall, including one with the Loriod sisters which must be over 30 years ago. For me it's one of those pieces whose kaleidoscopic tumult doesn't readily transfer satisfactorily to the home environment. My loss, no doubt.

[Barbirollians]

Likewise, I've always thought GM's BALs make interesting listening. Looking forward, I realise I don't have a recording of Turangalila despite having heard it several times in the concert hall, including one with the Loriod sisters which must be over 30 years ago. For me it's one of those pieces whose kaleidoscopic tumult doesn't readily transfer satisfactorily to the home environment. My loss, no doubt.

I have never heard it in concert but I get the point a bit like Mahler 8 I suspect.

[Barbirollians]

I have never heard it in concert but I get the point a bit like Mahler 8 I suspect.

Previn the winner !

[Bryn]

Well presented, I thought, though I gave up on listening with care once the final three were announced since I already have and know them well. As a result, I failed to note the final recommendation. Good that Previn was in the final three, despite its using the unrevised score. That's the version John White chose in a much earlier BaL Nagano was a more recent BaL first choice. Among live recordings, it's a pity that Fischer was not mentioned, possibly because it's a BBC Music Magazine cover disc. I'm looking forward to hearing his Des canyons aux étoiles with the Utah Symphony Orchestra when it's released in about 6 weeks' time.

[ardcarp]

it's one of those pieces whose kaleidoscopic tumult doesn't readily transfer satisfactorily to the home environment.

A live performance of almost everything is surely best?

I really did enjoy today's BAL, I longed for more extracts, but that is the limitation of BAL as it stands. I agree that Gillian Moore gave it a good (and well-infirmed) shot. I'd never have guessed that Previn would have 'won' but from what we heard it was a good choice. I wish I could afford to order the final three...and afford the time to listen to them repeatedly. Also the Finnish Radio Symphony version with Angela Hewitt. I'd no idea she had tackled that piano part.

A little anecdote. At school there was a lad who was highly skilled at playing around with radios and generally the rather primitive electronics of the 1960s. After being intrigued and inspired by the ondes Martenot, he modified a radio set* that would produce a glissando by turning a knob. It was great fun of course, but nothing like the real thing.

Mains Health and safety?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well presented, I thought, though I gave up on listening with care once the final three were announced since I already have and know them well. As a result, I failed to note the final recommendation. Good that Previn was in the final three, despite its using the unrevised score. That's the version John White chose in a much earlier BaL Nagano was a more recent BaL first choice. Among live recordings, it's a pity that Fischer was not mentioned, possibly because it's a BBC Music Magazine cover disc. I'm looking forward to hearing his Des canyons aux étoiles with the Utah Symphony Orchestra when it's released in about 6 weeks' time.

It was Previn and I for one cheered inwardly . His name keeps cropping up in the BAL shortlists and for once he has carried the palm.

[ardcarp]

[Goon525]

Though did anyone else think it odd that having dismissed several versions for dated sound (and I agree that sound quality really matters in this work), she then went back nearly half a century for her winner? I guess it is pretty well recorded.