BaL 21.04.12 - Prokofiev's Symphony no. 5

[Panjandrum]

Just got round to listening to this. GN really seemed to have it in for the Mitropoulos. Is there some history here we weren't told about? In fact, given how many recordings were passed over without a mention (including, laughably, his previous BaL recommendation for this work) why on earth did this warrant several extracts, given it was bad as made out. I'm also getting annoyed about the fact that the "winning" recording is often barely featured in any musical extract until the last movement. Not just this week, but regularly, lengthy passages are played of recordings which don't make the final eliminator when it would have been far more useful to have heard the winning recording in these extracts, otherwise how can one be expected to concur with the reviewer's judgement?

This whole business of eliminating contenders on a movement by movement basis really doesn't sit too well with me. Are we supposed to deduce that unless the final movement is outstanding the rest of the performance is irrelevant? Does a "great" finale compensate for shoddiness elsewhere? I'm sure this isn't the case, but the way the programme is put together one could be forgiven for thinking so.

[silvestrione]

Just got round to listening to this. I'm also getting annoyed about the fact that the "winning" recording is often barely featured in any musical extract until the last movement. Not just this week, but regularly, lengthy passages are played of recordings which don't make the final eliminator when it would have been far more useful to have heard the winning recording in these extracts, otherwise how can one be expected to concur with the reviewer's judgement?

.

Did you hear a shortened version? There were at least three substantial extracts from the Karajan, carefully contratsed with others, e.g. Juowski/RNO

[Panjandrum]

Did you hear a shortened version? There were at least three substantial extracts from the Karajan, carefully contratsed with others, e.g. Juowski/RNO

Listening on my bike AIH. Trying not to get mashed by HGVs, or fall down a pothole on our wonderfully maintained public highways meant that my attention wasnt always 100%. However, I still think we should hear more from the winning recording, but accept in a 45 minute slot exigencies of space are against it.

[Dave2002]

Oh dear, D2002! It was the Svetlanov Glazunov Symphonies on the Russian Venezia label I was recommending from HMV Tokyo, not the Fedoseyev, which I've never even heard! Very sorry if my post wasn't clear and I misled you into a purchase! Still recommend the Svetlanov, FWIW...

Jayne
I owe you an apology. You did indeed recommend the Svetlanov. Not sure if it's the same as the one I got though more recently from Classical Selections - part of the Svetlanov series. It's this set from Warner - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Sym...5186514&sr=1-2

Another member mentioned the Fedoseyev CDs from Japan.

Re sound quality - it's a bit odd. It's not always the case that SQ is improved by playing a recording back on good equipment. I have (somewhere) some tapes of Mackerras conducting Messiah recorded in the USA off public radio, which were made using a Sony boom box type recorder. Played back on that recorder/player or a very similar one they sound fine, but play them on a decent recorder and they sound dreadful. All the faults show up, and they are very distracting.

Re coughing - it can be a pain, both at live concerts and on recordings. I have a recording of Mravinsky conducting Tchaikovsky 5 which is very good indeed (Olympia, IIRC) but which came with a review and a health warning about the state of Muscovites' throats in the year that it was recorded. I'm guessing that not everyone can cope with that degree of coughing to disturb their listening.

There was once a complete cycle of Robert Simpson string quartets, which was recorded by the BBC. Unfortunately I believe they had to remake virtually all of them, as at each concert a gentleman started to unpack his sandwiches and eat them while the music was playing. I think there may have been sweets involved as well, though whether they were cough sweets or not I can't say. There were certainly sandwiches, though. Maybe also bags of crisps!

[jayne lee wilson]

Thanks D2002...

The Svetlanov Glazunov set I have here is a 2006 Venezia remastering (CDVE 04259), of the complete cycle, mostly from 1989 (No.1 was recorded in 1993). In a smart red, black and white box.
The sound is, truly, outstanding. Audiophile class! But most of the documentation is in Russian, so...

I actually sent one or two of those Warners Svetlanov Edition releases back, of the Rachmaninov Symphonies, and replaced them with Pony Canyon HDCD efforts (probably nla). Big leap in quality. I think Warners just took too much on, and deprived purchasers of HDCD too! Though I think other listeners were more pleased with the Myaskovsky.

Sorry, off-topic. Now got the lossless download of the Rozhdestvensky 1971 Prom of Prokky 5 (Faulkner Legends one), hope to attend later...

[HighlandDougie]

I must definitely stop reading this thread as, as well as Rozhdestvensky/Leningrad and Ashkenazy/Sydney SO, I've now ordered the Rozhdestvensky/Prokofiev Melodiya complete cycle, which are, at least until Wednesday, relatively cheap from MDT. Along with the Martinon set and Mravinsky on mono MK in the 6th, they were how I got to know the symphonies so it'll be interesting to hear them again (I always thought that the 7th in particular was pretty special). That takes the number of 5ths on my shelves to 15 versions which is undoubtedly too many for any sane (as opposed to obsessive) person to have.

[Barbirollians]

I must definitely stop reading this thread as, as well as Rozhdestvensky/Leningrad and Ashkenazy/Sydney SO, I've now ordered the Rozhdestvensky/Prokofiev Melodiya complete cycle, which are, at least until Wednesday, relatively cheap from MDT. Along with the Martinon set and Mravinsky on mono MK in the 6th, they were how I got to know the symphonies so it'll be interesting to hear them again (I always thought that the 7th in particular was pretty special). That takes the number of 5ths on my shelves to 15 versions which is undoubtedly too many for any sane (as opposed to obsessive) person to have.

I have found the Kletzki on amazon.de very cheaply so have gone for that . I must to my shame get round to listening to the Jarvi Prokofiev box which I bought last year .

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, fatal thread this, financially.. haven't even heard the Rozh Prom yet...
320 kbps excerpts of Kletzki DID sound promising. Hope I don't find CD or lossless!

[Bryn]

jlw, next to the Prokofiev 5 CD at the theclassicalshop.net (using the search terms "prokofiev symphony 5 rozhdestvensky" is another Prokofiev/Rozhdestvensky recording I mentioned in relation to the Jurowski recording to the 5th. This time the 20 bit remastering is by Paul Baily. I refer to Ode to the End of the War. If you don't know this performance, I adjure you to rectify the situation.

[Gordon]

...... - not to open a can of worms but the quality of the disc itself can be a factor in SQ; years ago Stereophile did a magisterial analysis of digital sound (try their archive - "CD - Jitter, errors and magic") - and found CDs to apparently be the source of worryingly varying levels of jitter, even for the same issues.. (re)mastering is not the only factor...

Apologies for delayed response to this post but I've been catching up!! Indeed let's not open that can of worms but just to say that this article is one of the best I've seen that has a sane and objective approach to the many issues of subjective vs objective sound quality assessment. The engineering issues are clearly exposed and put in context and illustrated well. He neatly blows a hole in some of the exaggerated claims made. Nevertheless, the author does recognise that something apparently beneficial is happening that is not easily explained. I have not seen any follow up anywhere including the AES journal [unless I have cloth eyes looking at the index] that adds to this work. Has anyone else?

The issue I have with the purveyors of these "magic" accessories is that they are coy [so what's new in snake oil] about how they came to the solution [sorry] of the "green ink pen" fix? Does it have to be green? Would blue have a better or worse effect? What concentration works best? etc etc. Would any old marker pen from Staples do the same job? If not, why, to justify the cost?

[BBMmk2]

What are members' opinions of the Neeme Jarvi Prok 5?

[HighlandDougie]

What are members' opinions of the Neeme Jarvi Prok 5?

Prompted by BBM, I've just given it a quick spin. While I ought to be flying the flag for my home team - and while the performance is undoubtedly a good one - the orchestral playing of the SNO in the 1980s wasn't exactly up there with the best of them. I like Järvi's Prokofiev 6th very much and somehow the less than stellar orchestral playing on it doesn't bother me nearly as much as it does in his 5th. No doubt I'm being unfair (and maybe it's the comparison with the playing of, inter alia, the Leningrad Phil, the Berlin Phil, the CBSO and the Concertgebouw which shows up the SNO) but I really don't think that it stands up very well against the competition. The recording doesn't help matters very much either, betraying its origins in the SNO Centre (a former church) by being both resonant and a bit distant. So, sorry, BBM, I don't think that I'll be reaching for this version very often in the future.

If you want to hear what the current RSNO sounds like, I can do no better than recommend Stephane Denève's 2-disc Debussy set - same recording company but a different recording location - and in my very unhumble opinion, one of the best orchestral recordings I've ever heard.

[jayne lee wilson]

Just played the Koln Gurzenich/Kitajenko 5th again... utterly magnificent, prime recommendation, if it weren't only available in the complete cycle. (Or even if it is...)
You might wonder about the agogic slowing before the Grand Central Climax of the adagio, but the malevolent splendour of it, and the immensely touching tenderness of the quieter music left in its wake are extraordinary, quite individual. One of the finest 5ths ever, and yet giving the Rattle finale a quick re-visit afterwards I was drawn into that too, it remains in the same class, despite the sleek, polished, all-guns-blazing sound of the Kitajenko. For complete cycles, you could easily live with just this Koln set and the Rozh Melodiya one, you'd need almost nothing else...

I also enjoyed the Rozh 1971 Prom hugely, wonderful sound for the time and place, just a little disappointed that the very last thwack was underpowered compared to what precedes it.

[Bryn]

I really cannot recall just what it was prompted me to 'pre-order' the Kitajenko box but I am jolly glad I did. With its current price via the amazon.co.uk marketplace being under £19 including p&p it remains a steal.

[MickyD]

What are members' opinions of the Neeme Jarvi Prok 5?

I must say I have lived with this performance for years and find it very exciting - though 'tis true, I haven't done much comparing with other versions. Unlike HighlandDougie, I love the resonant Chandos recording.