BaL 14.04.12 Mozart Symphony no 41 "Jupiter"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Should I infer that there can be a single underlying pulse to, say, the whole of the slow movement of Bruckner 8?

I like this idea, kernel: akin to the central Tonality of a Movement which remains the reference point for the various modulations within it?

[Nick Armstrong]

I like this idea, kernel: akin to the central Tonality of a Movement which remains the reference point for the various modulations within it?

As I get more and more music under my belt as the years go on, it's the pulse (and its maintenance by the performers) that matters more and more to me than mere tempo.

[MickyD]

How time flies, Bryn! I could have sworn that the budget box reissue was much later than 1997! My mistake, it isn't that new at all! But I wonder if the notes were abridged for the reissue?

[Pabmusic]

...Should I infer that there can be a single underlying pulse to, say, the whole of the slow movement of Bruckner 8?

Yes indeed. Finding a basic pulse that applies over a large span is quite an art, and I should think that it's particularly important in Bruckner (as it is in Schubert as well - they ought to play more Schubert on R3!). 'Basic pulse' doesn't mean 'conductor's beat', though often they will be the same. When you've settled on the basic pulse, all other speeds ought to relate to it. I know Boult would demonstrate that the speed might vary within the bar (with pullings-back and pressings-forward), or over a few bars, yet the overall timing was unaltered because the 'nudges' compensated for each other. It is not a style that encourages you to linger and gaze much at the scenery, whereas (for example) Celibedache's 'phenomenonology of music' related everything to the moment, each note to the one before and the one after. Often outstandingly beautiful and very exciting, but the music can occasionally drag (atrophy, more like). Bernstein could achieve similar beauty and excitement at a similar cost to the shape of the piece.

Trouble with all this is that you can become a candidate for Pseud's Corner.

[kernelbogey]

Thanks Pabmusic and Rauschwerk for views on pulse. I will listen with refreshed ears, and particularly in Bruckner, where the sense of the long span is so important. (I have the Jochum set.)
BW, kb

[Nick Armstrong]

Well I've listened to the Norrington version twice now. I hear above all a relentlessness that makes me want to stop listening. I've tried. In contrast the Krips/Concertgebouw performance I've been banging on about makes me want to keep listening, it communicates so compellingly and joyfully that I can't take my ears off it, and want to hear it again when I've finished. I don't really ever want to hear the Norrington again.

[John Skelton]

Well I've listened to the Norrington version twice now. I hear above all a relentlessness that makes me want to stop listening. I've tried. In contrast the Krips/Concertgebouw performance I've been banging on about makes me want to keep listening, it communicates so compellingly and joyfully that I can't take my ears off it, and want to hear it again when I've finished. I don't really ever want to hear the Norrington again.

Strange how it's possible to hear things so differently. I have that recording and don't find it at all "relentless": rather, full of uncovered detail and the exhilaration of Mozart's invention. The work should have an edge of sublime excess, of almost exceeding itself IMO (there's a very interesting Cambridge Music Handbook on the 'Jupiter' by Elaine R. Sisman which discusses it in the context of C18 theories of the sublime).

[visualnickmos]

As a slight aside to this thread, I'm thinking of possibly obtaining WAM's complete symhonies again. I have the Bohm set - all very nice, but I was wondering about, say - Pinnock, Tate, or the set on Brilliant Classics a Dutch Orchestra and director whose names escape me.... or indeed, any other sets that may meet my requirements!

But what I do NOT want is aversion with harpsichord continuo....

Thanks.

BTW, a very good BaL - not a straightforward 'competition' by any means, so very well done to the reviewer.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But what I do NOT want is aversion with harpsichord continuo....

Quite right! Aversions to Harpsichords are not to be encouraged!

Pinnock (and, I think, Jap ter Linden and the Mozart Academy of Amsterdam) both use Harpsichord (certainly in the early Symphonies) so you might wish to avoid them ('tho' the price of the Linden is tempting: http://www.selections.com/BX093/moza...es-1-41-11cds/). Tate, I always found rather bland in Mozart (although it's years since I listened to these discs).
These MP3 "samples" will give you an idea of how Marriner "goes": http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Compl...m_cd_album_lnk (the CDs, however, are much more expensive from this retailer!)

It sounds as if you're happy with Bohm; if you don't want to hear Harpsichords, I don't think you'll find another complete Symphony cycle to meet your - ahem - aversion!

[visualnickmos]

Thanks ferney.

I think you've more or less answered my question! I am happy with the Böhm, although I thought a more recent version might be a good idea - at the time of my posting, at any rate!

I just listened to Kubelik's WAM 'Jupiter' and what a fine performance it is - part of a 3 CD set from CBS of some of the later symphonies. I love 'em all. I don't think Kubelik recorded the complete symphonies...?

Going to give Colin Davis a spin tomorrow in the same work.

And thanks for the link to the Marriner - I'm going to have a listen right now.

Nick

[pastoralguy]

[QUOTE=visualnickmos;151804] I'm thinking of possibly obtaining WAM's complete symhonies again.

How about Charles Mackerras earlier version with the Prague Chamber Orchestra on Teldec?

Very good indeed (IMHO)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

How about Charles Mackerras earlier version with the Prague Chamber Orchestra on Teldec?

Very good indeed (IMHO)

BRILLIANT idea, pastie! IDIOT that I am I'd forgotten these! (The <DOH> emoticon doth not suffice!)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Telarc/CD80729

[visualnickmos]

I do have the earlier Mackerras, but it does have that blasted harpsichord! But thank you for your suggestion, all the same.
Just listened to some of the Mariner samples. They are brilliant! So fresh. The Böhm, excellent though it is, sounds just a little laboured in some of the later symphonies. In fact even no. 25 is rather lack-lustre.

[Bryn]

A certain Mr. Cowan convinced me, via the old BBC Radio 3 Forum, to get the Warner set of mature symphonies (RCO/Harnoncourt in K183, 184 and the later ones, the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra/Koopman in K129 to K182 and K199. I remain most grateful for the recommendation:

[rauschwerk]

It's off the iPlayer now. Did anyone listen to the whole thing? I have listened to the CD I burnt and the more I hear, the more I like Norrington's performance.