BaL 14.04.12 Mozart Symphony no 41 "Jupiter"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Some reviewers just don't like slow movements - unless they are fast.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Some reviewers just don't like slow movements - unless they are fast.

I refuse to be riled ...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... but, if I were, I might riposte with "Others just don't like Andante cantabiles- unless they are Adagio molto".

[ardcarp]

#60

even if the Orchestra couldn't cope, that's the speed I've always thought the first group of the First Movement should be taken

Oh dear. One really has to take a piece no faster than the musicians can play it, otherwise an unseemly scramble ensues...and I'm really surprised anyone has seen fit to keep the Albert Coates version in the catalogue. The first mov't of the Jupiter is heavily wind-dependant, and the wind instruments in Mozart's day (excepting maybe flutes) could not possibly cope with that breakneck speed. The HIPP people generally like things fast, but none of them even approached Coates' speed. Quite apart from all that, there is a certain rhetoric to the opening of the movement, entirely lost IMHO at the speed of light.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Perhaps I should've made clear: "even if Coates' orchestra couldn't cope".

Blind test:
without thinking of K551, beat a pulse of 4/4 "Allegro vivace".

Now put the opening of K551 to that pulse.

... faster than you thought it should go?

Perhaps the Movement does "lose" "a certain rhetoric" at the speeds closer to what is written in the score; but is that "rhetoric" Mozart's?

[euthynicus]

Perhaps the Movement does "lose" "a certain rhetoric" at the speeds closer to what is written in the score; but is that "rhetoric" Mozart's?

Yes, it is. As has been noted, if the notes cannot be articulated at that speed, they should not be played at that speed. Unless you want some pomo Nancarrowian fun. Mozart did not write such a wealth of detail for it to be sketched at and skittered over, which would still happen with a decent recording and a crack band today. It is a ludicrous stab at the piece.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, it is. As has been noted, if the notes cannot be articulated at that speed, they should not be played at that speed. Unless you want some pomo Nancarrowian fun. Mozart did not write such a wealth of detail for it to be sketched at and skittered over, which would still happen with a decent recording and a crack band today. It is a ludicrous stab at the piece.

"If".

[ardcarp]

OK. Tried that, but.....
'Allegro Vivace' is not a fixed metronome speed (though some do mark it, or used to) but more a state of mind, and therefore in itself open to interpretation. And for me, the 'rhetoric' is clearly Mozart's; otherwise why the 'Tum tiddly um tiddly um' (loud) followed by 'di dee di dee di dee dum' (soft) ? Mind you, I don't approve of overdoing the rhetoric by stretching the rests, as some do.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

OK. Tried that, but.....

'Allegro Vivace' is not a fixed metronome speed (though some do mark it, or used to) but more a state of mind, and therefore in itself open to interpretation.

Well, up to a point, Lord Copper. Allegro vivace in 4/4 surely can't be Allegretto moderato in 2/2 in any "state of mind" approximating to Mozart's?

And for me, the 'rhetoric' is clearly Mozart's; otherwise why the 'Tum tiddly um tiddly um' (loud) followed by 'di dee di dee di dee dum' (soft) ?

Not sure why loud/soft contrasts (which, I agree, are part of the rhetoric) should point to a slower Tempo than the "lively" one Mozart asks for, ardy.

[vinteuil]

I enjoyed this BAL. It was good to be reminded how very good the Hogwood/AAM is - on my shelves, but haven't listened to for years, must remedy - so intelligent, lithe, alert. The Norrington (Stuttgart) was indeed lovely; I have his earlier London Classical Players, which will probably do me - for the moment - given that I seem to have far too many Mozart Symphonies - not forgetting the Caliban-recommended Krips which landed on the coconut matting ten minutes ago... Wasn't particularly taken my the JEG (odd, I used to be a complete JEG admirer - nowadays I find less and less of his product makes me happy... ) - but the Pinnock will certainly be worth listening to again

[pastoralguy]

I was at work this morning and so mini-disced the programme. Do we still get texts about the 'winners' or has that been abandoned to save a fiver a week?

[vinteuil]

Do we still get texts about the 'winners' or has that been abandoned to save a fiver a week?

the 'winner' was Norrington with the Stuttgart. Martin Cotton also - for those who can't 'get' Norrington - liked Adrian Boult with the London Philharmonic...

[amateur51]

I was at work this morning and so mini-disced the programme. Do we still get texts about the 'winners' or has that been abandoned to save a fiver a week?

So glad you mentioned that pg - I was wondering if it was just me

[vinteuil]

They [the Krips] were part of the Philips Mozart Edition on LP, which I bought in the early 1980s. The Krips symphonies and the Haebler Piano Concertos were dumped in favour of Marriner and Brendel in the later CD edition.

:

ah, now that decca have given us - as a cheapo! - the Krips from the earlier Philips Mozart - are we allowed to hope that they might also give us Ingrid Haebler's marvellous performances of the Piano Concertos?? fingers crossed...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

ah, now that decca have given us - as a cheapo! - the Krips from the earlier Philips Mozart - are we allowed to hope that they might also give us Ingrid Haebler's marvellous performances of the Piano Concertos?? fingers crossed...

I hope so. It occasionally appears second-hand on Amazon at a silly price. A CD re-release would enable me to pass on the 16 box sets of Mozart LPs.