BaL 7.04.12 - Bach's St Matthew Passion

[Panjandrum]

I was touched to hear Ralph Vaughan Williams conducting SMP in a church hall in Dorking just before his death

Blimey, Vaughan Williams conducted Sara Mohr-Pietsch?

[Panjandrum]

I thought JS was a touch confrontational. While I wouldn't argue that Erbarme Dich is Bach's finest melody, for the simple expedient that Bach was no melodist (whatever else he may have been), to say that the St Matthew Passion is the finest Christian work "no argument" is risible persiflage. How anyone could dismiss the 1610 Vespers, Missa Solemnis, Brahms and Verdi Requiems (whatever the religious beliefs of these composers, the texts are undeniably "Christian"), Die Schöpfung, Bruckner 8 and 9 (yes, I do mean the symphonies), St Francois d'Assise, is beyond me. I'm afraid that that kind of dogmatism undermines the credibility of the reviewer; as does the complete failure to consider Gardiner's extraordinary recording, one of the clearest Gramophone Records of the Year of all time.

[Nick Armstrong]

risible persiflage

Good one, Panny!

I must say I find Gardiner's recording far too hard-driven, theatrical rather than spiritual and hence missing the point albeit - true - extraordinary and a technical tour-de-force. Same goes for his other large-scale Bach. I tried them all when they came out, but returned them all - they left me cold and rather irritated.

[Panjandrum]

I must say I find Gardiner's recording far too hard-driven, theatrical rather than spiritual and hence missing the point .

You may well have a point Cal. However, to dismiss Gardiner out of hand makes one wonder whether there isn't an element of score-settling or personal animus going on here.

[silvestrione]

Your view about the length of this BAL is spot on too, I made a similar point somewhere above. Shame, I'd have MUCH preferred that to the double helping of Verdi they ladled in at the end of the programme

A lot of us seem to think this: I do hope CD Review are getting the message. There is some evidence they look at these boards.

[BBMmk2]

I found that JEG's quite uplifting. Perhaps that the hard driven aspect of his interpretation that I like?

[reinerfan]

I found that JEG's quite uplifting. Perhaps that the hard driven aspect of his interpretation that I like?

I do agree, as I am all in favour of getting through these religiously based works as quickly as possible!

[umslopogaas]

#82 reinerfan

That's a very interesting (to me) point: religiously based works to the non-religious, and that includes me, can leave a nasty taste. But, if we the enlightened reject the works of those inspired by what we regard as superstitious gibberish, we will throw out almost the entire works of JS Bach, and that I am not prepared to do. So I enjoy the music of JSB and at the same time reject the source from which it flowed. JSB was a genius, religiously devout, completely sincere and entirely mistaken. It didnt stop him writing the most glorious paeans to the human spirit that have ever been composed. And I dont even believe in that spirit.

Discuss.

[Bryn]

umslopogaas, since you and I are both well aware that religions are human mental constructs, where's the problem. Ultimately SMP was the product of a human brain responding to the human ideas of the society he liven in.

[jayne lee wilson]

#82 reinerfan

That's a very interesting (to me) point: religiously based works to the non-religious, and that includes me, can leave a nasty taste. But, if we the enlightened reject the works of those inspired by what we regard as superstitious gibberish, we will throw out almost the entire works of JS Bach, and that I am not prepared to do. So I enjoy the music of JSB and at the same time reject the source from which it flowed. JSB was a genius, religiously devout, completely sincere and entirely mistaken. It didnt stop him writing the most glorious paeans to the human spirit that have ever been composed. And I dont even believe in that spirit.

Discuss.

How can you hear this music as a "glorious paean to the human spirit" if you don't even believe in such a "spirit"? Shouldn't you just dismiss it as foolish, on your own terms?

Do this exercise: write "spirit" in the centre of a piece of paper, and then write around it, as many meanings or associations of the word "spirit" as you can; you could do the same with "God" too. I have never had any religion, formal or otherwise, but I see such phenomena as manifestations of human creativity, the search for meaning in what can seem like the "chaos" of nature. This is, sadly, also true of the most violent acts of fundamentalists and extremists.

If you are compelled by your dismissiveness to reduce human emotion and behaviour to an interplay of helpless appetites in a spirit-less world, how can you enjoy human creativity without self-deception and hypocrisy?
Aren't you clinging to something irrational, mysterious, perhaps something you yourself can't grasp, the very impulse that led to religious belief itself?

[ARBurton]

I thought JS was a touch confrontational. While I wouldn't argue that Erbarme Dich is Bach's finest melody, for the simple expedient that Bach was no melodist (whatever else he may have been), to say that the St Matthew Passion is the finest Christian work "no argument" is risible persiflage. How anyone could dismiss the 1610 Vespers, Missa Solemnis, Brahms and Verdi Requiems (whatever the religious beliefs of these composers, the texts are undeniably "Christian"), Die Schöpfung, Bruckner 8 and 9 (yes, I do mean the symphonies), St Francois d'Assise, is beyond me. I'm afraid that that kind of dogmatism undermines the credibility of the reviewer; as does the complete failure to consider Gardiner's extraordinary recording, one of the clearest Gramophone Records of the Year of all time.

That`s a very interesting point. I agree entirely that the Brahms and Verdi Requiems are Christian texts - as too the Berlioz, the Mozart, and any other requiem (except perhaps Hindemith). So why does the SMPT "feel" much more of a religious piece than these - including the Missa Solemnis which personally I`d put at the top of the list of worthy candidates you mention.
And does that mean that I have to go and find a copy of the Gardiner recording...? I`m trying to slim the collection not expand it!

[Nick Armstrong]

does that mean that I have to go and find a copy of the Gardiner recording...?

I wouldn't if I were you! It's extraordinary, but to borrow a word from yesterday's BAL about JEG in Mozart, it's a bit "brutal" in places it doesn't need to be (I accept that there are brutal elements to the Passion story) ... it's not very... religious, to these ears at any rate...

[BBMmk2]

Ah, I thbink hear is the case of one person's pleasure, is another person's nightmare! We could discuss this ad infinitum! The joys of everyopne being different, which isthe best way, imo.