BaL 5.11.11 Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony

[euthynicus]

Deathridge was hilarious. It's clear that he doesn't actually like recordings at all. Or the BAL format, come to that. He'd say any kind of objective guide through the piece or the performance history is impossible, I suppose, and pointless, and so one might as well make it a qiuxotically entertaining guide through one man's informed prejudices. I don't see BAL like that myself, but I sympathise. The insouciance of his dismissal of Norrington, Hogwood and Gardiner, to say nothing of his nose-thumbing at Rattle, Harnoncourt and Furt, his piquant exhumation of Scherchen - but he should have tried or played Paray as well as Leibowitz - and airy confidence that whatever used to happen, we know better now. All completely wrong, but makes for very good radio.

[visualnickmos]

I am sure that many years ago, the library choice was Reiner and the Chicago SO. Does anyone else recall this BaL from what must be the late '80s ?

A couple of weeks later, I subsequently stumbled upon said choice, in that wonderful bargain CD shop that used to be in Creed Lane, a stone's throw from StPaul's (cathedral). I must give it another spin.

Right now, I'm listening through my Kempe/Munich Philharmonisc set; report so far; excellent.
Haven't 'done' the 6th yet!

Don't think I'll get the Kleiber - great though it surely is, as I have many LvB syms, sets and 'one-offs', and this would be an extravagence I can ill-afford or justify in these uncertain times.

Think I'll listen to the Bohm again, though.

[Nick Armstrong]

Deathridge was hilarious. It's clear that he doesn't actually like recordings at all. Or the BAL format, come to that. He'd say any kind of objective guide through the piece or the performance history is impossible, I suppose, and pointless, and so one might as well make it a qiuxotically entertaining guide through one man's informed prejudices. I don't see BAL like that myself, but I sympathise. The insouciance of his dismissal of Norrington, Hogwood and Gardiner, to say nothing of his nose-thumbing at Rattle, Harnoncourt and Furt, his piquant exhumation of Scherchen - but he should have tried or played Paray as well as Leibowitz - and airy confidence that whatever used to happen, we know better now. All completely wrong, but makes for very good radio.

I too like a piquant exhumation of a Saturday morning!

(There was a tone of rather weary resignation to Deathridge's tone of voice when the review started, it's true).

As you say, good radio. I imagine there was some spluttering of toast and marmalade among a few listeners.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Caliban:

I would love them to cover the 'Eroica'. Rather surprising that they didn't take the opportunity of a "tie-in" with the re-screening of the film on BBC4...

One "department" of the Beeb liaising with another? No chance: it might set a precedent!

Another respectable attempt at an impossible BaL: a reviewer who can keep my interest after dismissing Furtwangler with such disdain has achieved quite a feat, and I loved the way Deathridge gave Karajan his due before chucking him. The only for me wasn't the Scherchen (the Tempo seemed fine, but the articulation made it sound breathless) but the Rattle.

I'm very drawn to the Krivine/Chambre Philharmonique recording. Didn't AMcG mention that there's going to be a fuller review of this cycle next week?

Best Wishes.

[amateur51]

I'm afraid I must make a minority report - done in the style of John Deathridge, I hope you noticed, the style denying the content

Firstly, that opening remark - it was just as euthynicus says, 'his nose-thumbing at Rattle, Harnoncourt and Furt'. But why not do the reveal after we'd heard the clip, Innocent Ear-style, so that we could make up our own minds and then either be smugly affirmed or as Caliban says, left spluttering the Tiptree all over the breakfast table?

Then there was the pronunciation question - this had me in tucks, as he struggled to find a pronunciation and then to stick to it, for Cluytens, Scherchen et al. Not a comfy bunny, which is strange as this boy has obviously copied the French boys' homework Was anyone else caught off-guard by his apparent impersonations at times of the late Robert Stephens' conversational style? Nitpicking I know, but what does it say about how I reacted to the content that I noticed these linguistic quirks?

This is silly nit-picking on my part, as I say: what really irked me is that he chose what was clearly a one-off, literally. Was it a performance that you could live with? He enjoyed it, clearly, marvellous! But he also seemed to be in awe of it, as it was something the like of which he had not heard before. As Caliban says, I think I have to hear the whole performance on Monday to 'get' Kleiber's performance/Deathridge's reaction to it.

If I were a newcomer to the work and to the programme, would Mr Deathridge have pointed me towards a 'library' choice? I think not.

But I shall be listening out for the Kleiber on Monday

[ostuni]

Krivine: wasn't a specific recommendation, but he mentioned Norrington's & Hogwood's early versions, said he liked JEG's, but was impressed by 2 recent contenders: Krivine & Immerseel. He played extracts from both, & proceeded to rubbish some of Immerseel's tempi/transitions (& his liner notes...). The Krivine sounded really rather good: the complete set is up for discussion next week, along with the Chailly and another recent set which I can't recall at the moment.

[amateur51]

Krivine: wasn't a specific recommendation, but he mentioned Norrington's & Hogwood's early versions, said he liked JEG's, but was impressed by 2 recent contenders: Krivine & Immerseel. He played extracts from both, & proceeded to rubbish some of Immerseel's tempi/transitions (& his liner notes...). The Krivine sounded really rather good: the complete set is up for discussion next week, along with the Chailly and another recent set which I can't recall at the moment.

Thielemann I think

[ostuni]

Thielemann I think

Thanks, yes it was. I think because I associate him so much with the R Strauss/Wagner axis, I'd already blanked out his Beethoven...

[Karafan]

Right now, I'm listening through my Kempe/Munich Philharmonisc set; report so far; excellent.
Haven't 'done' the 6th yet!

Impressed that you managed to obtain the Kempe/Munich set, 'Visual'. I take it you must have had that a while....I keep my eyes peeled for it but have to be satisfied with the few crumbs offered in the EMI Kempe 'Icon' box....

K.

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm afraid I must make a minority report - done in the style of John Deathridge, I hope you noticed, the style denying the content

Firstly, that opening remark - it was just as euthynicus says, 'his nose-thumbing at Rattle, Harnoncourt and Furt'. But why not do the reveal after we'd heard the clip, Innocent Ear-style, so that we could make up our own minds and then either be smugly affirmed or as Caliban says, left spluttering the Tiptree all over the breakfast table?

Then there was the pronunciation question - this had me in tucks, as he struggled to find a pronunciation and then to stick to it, for Cluytens, Scherchen et al. Not a comfy bunny, which is strange as this boy has obviously copied the French boys' homework Was anyone else caught off-guard by his apparent impersonations at times of the late Robert Stephens' conversational style? Nitpicking I know, but what does it say about how I reacted to the content that I noticed these linguistic quirks?

This is silly nit-picking on my part, as I say: what really irked me is that he chose what was clearly a one-off, literally. Was it a performance that you could live with? He enjoyed it, clearly, marvellous! But he also seemed to be in awe of it, as it was something the like of which he had not heard before. As Caliban says, I think I have to hear the whole performance on Monday to 'get' Kleiber's performance/Deathridge's reaction to it.

If I were a newcomer to the work and to the programme, would Mr Deathridge have pointed me towards a 'library' choice? I think not.

But I shall be listening out for the Kleiber on Monday

Good stuff, ammy

I only spotted one quirk of pronunciation, which came just after a Cluytens reference - he seemed to pronounce the rest of the sentence in René-from-Allo-Allo style

And I didn't mind him putting the boot into the named interpretations he didn't like - I found it refreshingly direct and honest, his opinion sure, but backed up with reasons and illustrations. I thought it was bracing. Put a bit of stick about! That's what I say!

But...

....what really irked me is that he chose what was clearly a one-off, literally. Was it a performance that you could live with?

Could well be, ammy. That performance came shining through 2 hours of blind tasting on the French critics' programme, as mentioned at the start of this thread... Plus I can remember, when it was first issued, a musical friend (who's in the profession) talked to me about it with great excitement as a revelation.

Let's have a good listen on Monday! I already love the way the final thanksgiving song surged with elation... young Carlos's strong suit. Have you ever watched that video of him conducting LvB No 4? The transition from the solemn opening to the rest of the first movement is as mesmerising as anything I know: check out from 2' 35" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4j7wUt0EyE

[gurnemanz]

As with others above, my initial impression is that this might be more of a one-off listen than a library version - especially if the sound is not great. I was also slightly surprised that it was assumed that the latest ideas must necessarily be the most valid.

I will also have a listen on Monday, but I will need a bit of convincing that I need yet another Pastoral on my shelf.

[amateur51]

That clip is wonderful. Cailban - it's almost sexual isn't it, the way he moves, so unexpectedly and yet so 'right'. I could watch him make porridge, I think

You're quite right about Deathridge's pronunciation of Cluytens - he never settled on his chosen one; as for Scherchen I imagaine that the mike was festooned with shimmering strands of saliva all over it as Mr D struggled for a sound to his liking Joking aside, all credit to him for choosing to let us hear Scherchen's approach to the opening - fleet of foot it most certainly was.

Oddly enough if you look at the Amazon reviews (not sent down from the denizens Mount Olympus I agree but some of them are by serious collectors) of the VPO/Rattle Beethoven symphony set, it is no 6 that comes in for the most praise, and there is at least one review that highlights the woodwind bird-song for special positive attention. You pays your money ...

[BBMmk2]

I really like the Carlos Kleiber but I would not have said it was a library choice . I hope Bohm and Boult got honourable mentions.

I love the Bohm. With c/w Schubert's 5th.

[Barbirollians]

I cannot believe that Bohm did not get a mention- like doing a BAL of Das Lied von der Erde and not mentioning Ferrier/Walter.

I rather enjoyed his hated extract of the 1944 Furtwangler !

Are there really only 46 recordings available - I should have thought there were loads more . Presto Classical lists 220 !

I thought it was a dire BAL just as the last review of the Pastoral was and this time a tedious HIPP influenced survey much more informed by personal prejudice than reasoning .

Despite that he did end on a great account of the piece in the Kleiber but with that sound quality surely not a library version.

As for Clootens or perhaps Clooeetens or maybe even Clutense....

[HighlandDougie]

The fact that I seem to have Scherchen, Krivine, Cluytens (albeit the stereo remake), Walter (again in stereo, rather than 1936 VPO) and Kleiber, as well as Chailly, probably makes me hopelessly biased but I thought that it was both more interesting and enlightening than last week's rather sub-fusc effort from RC. The Kleiber is clearly the product of his usual penetrating intellect being applied to a piece of music in which, as was illustrated this morning, he finds depths which elude others, without, though, the end result sounding like the result of too much intellectualising. But, much as I like the performance, I'm very much on the side of the doubters that it is a sound BAL choice. Kleiber works for me because I have some frame of reference within which I can place his interpretation - in my case, it's not plodding (like late Klemperer) nor glib (like the 1962 Karajan). If I were coming to the piece for the first time via Kleiber, though, I'm not sure that I would want to return to it very often. The recording is tolerable but little more. I very much like Krivine and the Chailly is beautifully played and recorded (I like resonance) but, 1950s naive it may be, the Cluytens still does it for me.