BaL 15.10.11 - Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique

[MickyD]

mais bien évidemment....

The France-Musique 'critics forum' programme (now called for reasons which elude all rational people, "Le Jardin des Critiques") considered the piece a couple of weeks ago.

The two recordings which emerged on top were by Les siècles, under François-Xavier Roth (2009, Musicales Actes Sud) and the Thomas Beecham performance with the Orchestre national de l'ORTF in 1959 for EMI.

With commendable lack of chauvinism, they chose Beecham as the best of the best, for its sheer vigour and style and hallucinatory brilliance, relegating their compatriot because the orchestra, ophicleides and all no doubt, just didn't have the 'oooomph'. I actually loved the grainy, woody, visceral sounds of Les siècles...

Interesting, Caliban - I have a few recordings by Les Siècles and they are very impressive, particularly their recent live version of Stravinsky's Firebird. I haven't heard their Berlioz and feel I ought to get hold of it. I have the Gardiner on my shelves and though it was an important release at the time, I really don't like the very dry acoustic.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Inspired by this thread, I listened to Davis's Concertgebouw recording, and went on to listen to the same conductor's interpretations of the the other symphonies. I came to the conclusion that Sir Colin is head and shoulders above anyone else as a Berlioz conductor. He has everything within his grasp, from the overall structure to the tinest detail.

[HighlandDougie]

Inspired by MickyD's enthusiasm for Les Siècles's Firebird - a thrilling disc - I've just acquired their SF (supposedly used but shrink-wrapped - for under a fiver via Amazon Marketplace). Very fine recording in a spacious but not too spacious acoustic, although it's live and there are occasional off-stage noises. As far as HiP versions go, I find it more immediately appealing than Immerseel, Norrington and Minkowski (a performance which I much like, let down by the recording) so I'll be interested in what's said on Saturday. If MickyD reads this, I wouldn't hesitate to acquire it.

[MickyD]

Inspired by MickyD's enthusiasm for Les Siècles's Firebird - a thrilling disc - I've just acquired their SF (supposedly used but shrink-wrapped - for under a fiver via Amazon Marketplace). Very fine recording in a spacious but not too spacious acoustic, although it's live and there are occasional off-stage noises. As far as HiP versions go, I find it more immediately appealing than Immerseel, Norrington and Minkowski (a performance which I much like, let down by the recording) so I'll be interested in what's said on Saturday. If MickyD reads this, I wouldn't hesitate to acquire it.

Well, thanks for that, Dougie and I am not surprised by your findings...these few Siècles/Roth discs are turning out to be real treasures and it's just a pity they are not getting wider exposure. The Firebird is also a live recording and there is the odd cough here and there, but I'm sure the live performance adds to the excitement. Now, off to put their SF into my shopping basket! I'll keep my eyes peeled for future releases...the label, Actes Sud, is in my vicinity and I know a nice guy in their record shop.

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

Inspired by MickyD's enthusiasm for Les Siècles's Firebird - a thrilling disc - I've just acquired their SF (supposedly used but shrink-wrapped - for under a fiver via Amazon Marketplace). Very fine recording in a spacious but not too spacious acoustic, although it's live and there are occasional off-stage noises. As far as HiP versions go, I find it more immediately appealing than Immerseel, Norrington and Minkowski (a performance which I much like, let down by the recording) so I'll be interested in what's said on Saturday. If MickyD reads this, I wouldn't hesitate to acquire it.

I also bought the Les Siecles recording recently, I suspect from the same source as HighlandDougie - a French source? - and found it extremely well played and exciting.

Following the La Tribune programme (France musique's predecessor to Le jardin des critiques) on SF last year, I acquired recordings by Markevitch and Munch - his Orchestre de Paris recording which was made before its first 'official' concert and is incredible, especially in its very 'French' woodwind sound which just doesn't exist any more.

Of the Colin Davis recordings, I only have his Vienna and LSO Live accounts - the former a bit underwhelming and 'buttoned up', the latter very good. How much better is the Concertgebouw recording?

[Barbirollians]

Different league IGI ! - The LSO Live recording comes second to it of his accounts though I do not have the VPO. I like his old LSO record but the Concertgebouw is much more exciting in my view . It is a classic.

[salymap]

Colin Davis has done it again. Well Done CD

[amateur51]

This was a huge field for Stephen Johnson to sift through and I wonder if he might have found it easier to make a number of recommendations, e.g., most recommendable historical recording, most recommendable modern recording, most recommendable HIPP recording, most recommendable bargain price recording etc.

I was disappointed that we didn't hear the recording by Les Siecles which has been mentioned on this thread but, as I said, it's a huge field.

Otherwise ... I enjoyed it and felt that SJ's analysis would have been useful to both the seasoned listener and to someone coming to the piece for the first time.

Finally - what was Muti on at the time of the recording? The extract played fair blew me out of my seat

[Biffo]

I heard Muti conduct the SF live with the Philharmonia. It was an absolutely stunning experience, something a recording can never match.

Davis/LSO Live was a fair first choice but I still have a strong affection for the earlier LSO version despite when I first owned it on LP there was a break in the third movement.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... I enjoyed it and felt that SJ's analysis would have been useful to both the seasoned listener and to someone coming to the piece for the first time.

I wasn't quite as enthusiastic, S_A. I thought it was typical SJ: one-third real insight, one-third careless (Berlioz's contemporaries, far from "being in no doubt that the 'Artist' concerned was Berlioz himself", would either never have heard of him before the premiere, or would've known him personally and therefore known that he wasn't the sort to "do" opium, - or, possibly, would have wondered what a chorus singer from the comic opera was doing writing a symphony), and one-third narcissism (we mustn't buy the Beecham because it makes Mr Johnson think of the conductor "cavorting about on the podium"! As if Beecham ever did such a thing in this repertoire!)

The eventual "winner" was a good overall recommendation, I thought, ('tho' I share Barbi's preference for the earlier Concertgebouw performance): but the devil in me is really drawn to the van Immerseel disc (? may have to check that spelling!) - the post-Wagnerian idea of "the long line" may not have been Berlioz'!

[Tony Halstead]

Agreed, amateur51!

Now that the whole 'H.I.P.'/ 'original instrument orchestras' thing is an accepted part of our musical life rather than an esoteric 'anorak' pursuit, IMV the reviewer's brief should include a final judgement of both 'modern' and 'authentic' recordings.
What I found objectionable ( and Mr Johnson isn't alone in this respect) was the arbitrary mixing up of 'old' and 'new' instruments giving some sickening lurches of pitch between our current pitch of A=440hz+ and the lower pitches hovering around A=430hz.
To follow an extract from, say, the LSO with the O.R.R., with a nosedive of pitch, gives the illusion that the actual sound quality of the period band is duller and darker, whereas the opposite is nearly always the case.
The ideal would surely be to compare the modern versions and then move to the period ones as a separate issue so that there would be some stability of pitch.

[Biffo]

SJ isn't the only one guilty of carelessness. Berlioz only sang in a chorus for a short time to support himself before entering the Conservatoire. By the time of the first performance of SF Berlioz was well-known in Paris because of his first concerts, the scandal around his not winning the Prix de Rome and finally as a winner of the prize. He didn't really want to go to Italy as his career in Paris was just taking off. On his return from Rome the first performance of the SF along with Lelio was the sensational event of the season. The audience contained numerous artistic celebrities there to support Berlioz' artistic manifesto. Berlioz certainly not one to shrink from self-promotion, whether you regard it as narcissism is a a different matter.

As the son of doctor and a medical student Berlioz knew all about opium. Whether he ever took it himself in his youth I don't know but he moved in the kind of artistic circles where people did and the programme of the SF is a description of a narcotic-induced dream.

I leave it to the fans of Sir Thomas Beecham to say whether he cavorted in this or any other repertoire.

[vinteuil]

I wasn't quite as enthusiastic...

I agree... I mean - what no reference at all to ophicleides?!! (tho', to be fair he did just touch on the issue of the bells... )

Why no reference at all to the elsewhere-much-praised Roth/Siècles version??

....the devil in me is really drawn to the van Immerseel disc - the post-Wagnerian idea of "the long line" may not have been Berlioz'!

Yes! - I think SJ was indeed 'post-Wagnerian' in his take on this. I like the abrasive and particularised quality of the van Immerseel - may well have to invest...

[MickyD]

Vinteuil, I have the Immerseel...I usually like his work, but I do find his substitution of the usual bell for an old Erard piano rather curious and underwhelming. I'm definitely going to seek out that Les Siècles disc.

[BBMmk2]

Ah, so I missed a good BaL? I must get to downloading the podcast, sometime. I have the LSO Live recording, which I am glad it was chosen!!